12 Apr 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidSo here goes, I'll kick off and see where this goes.
Sounds reasonable to me, if I stray and I'm not saying this because I plan on it, I'll say sorry in advance and attempt to do better.
Everything I am writing here is my own opinion, no quotes or references, so feel free to contradict me.
As I see it, there are three major Stages (in some cases four) for each one of us in arriving at The Truth. I am intentionally going to keep it as broad and generic as I can, so that it can apply to everybody.
Stage 1: The arrival on planet Earth.
This stage is impossible to avoid. We arrive alone and without baggage and beliefs and land in some kind of family setting. Now of course the latter varies immensely. It can be loving or toxic, healthy or totally sick, etc etc. But this is our introduction to this world.
Stage 2: Assimilation
Between infancy and give or take the first seven to ten years of our life we absorb the atmosphere of our parents' home. We uncritically accept their norms, values, beliefs etc as if there was nothing else on this earth - which of course there isn't for this child. We are not aware of contrary or conflicting povs. Atheists or Christian or Buddhist start mainly here.
Stage 3: Individuation
This process takes place at any time between late teens and early twenties - and sometimes a lot later.
It is when we begin to question the norms and beliefs of our parents and start thinking for ourselves. At this stage, one of two things happens (although these are by no means discreet and absolute, and there are many gradiations in between):
(A). We affirm and continue to accept the tribal norms inherited from our parents. This is by far the more common situation, and that is why communities, tribes, religions, etc thrive and continue. Or:
(B). We reject these norms, values and beliefs. This can happen gradually or swiftly. For many, this can be associated with a profound subjective religious experience. We go forward at an altar call. Or it can be triggered by a friend or colleague, or by a respected authority figure. Whatever the cause, it is usually a day and night experience, when the "scales fell from my eyes" and one finally recognized The Truth. This is what happened to fmf, and he talks about it freely.
What must be emphasised here is that this change of opinion or focus is invariable a subjective one, and the person experiencing it will invariably try to make it into an objective discovery of Truth.
In some cases, it can happen later in life, one of the most well-known of these is Paul's Damascus Road experience.
Stage 4 Transformation
This is our adult stage, where we continue to grow, explore and change. Those of us here who read this and are retired (as I am) will know that your drives and values change from being a dynamic young man to a "learned elder" (hopefully!) Also, having read more, met more people, seen more of the world, our horizon is broader. We tend to be less judgemental and more accepting.
To quote Ken Wilber, we grow from egocentric to ethnocentric to world-centric. Or from Me to Us to All of us. But let me hasten to add that such growth is NOT inevitable. Some people stay in their teens and twenties their entire life long, emotionally and spiritually.
SO, to summarise what I am trying to say:
Frstly, that TRUTH is for all of us (whether Southern Baptist, JW, Buddhist, LCM, or whatever) different things at different stages of our lives.
Secondly, that we all arrive at TRUTH along different paths, and no path is the more important one.
If you, KJ, arrived at your conviction in your parent's home, then some will say you are blessed (those who believe like you do) whilst some will say poor ignorant you (e.g. Galv or fmf). And who is to say you may not have a further experience to show you "a better way"?
Before we go any further, can you find fault with my model? Does it satisfactorilly describe how we arrive at our own Truth?
I am certain there is nobody on RHP (or in the world) who sets out by saying: I really want to believe something that is outrageous and wrong! Each of us thinks OUR truth is The Truth!
Herendethelesson...
12 Apr 19
@caljust saidI don’t want to give you a knee jerk opinion let me think about this and I will respond.
So here goes, I'll kick off and see where this goes.
Everything I am writing here is my own opinion, no quotes or references, so feel free to contradict me.
As I see it, there are three major Stages (in some cases four) for each one of us in arriving at The Truth. I am intentionally going to keep it as broad and generic as I can, so that it can apply to everybody.
[ ...[text shortened]... g that is outrageous and wrong! [/i]Each of us thinks OUR truth is The Truth!
Herendethelesson...
12 Apr 19
1 edit
@caljust saidThe road to truth I have no issue with, we all walk our walks. I didn't get raised a Christian, I didn't hangout with Christians, I didn't even know any when I became a Christian. I guess my conversion wasn't normal, since I wasn't being preached too, no one was telling me what I needed to do. The few times I was aware of Christians was when I was in the Navy and I knew a couple moved in a couple of floors below us where we were housed. My friends and I expressed our hate for them, which as I think about it now there was no reason too, we just did. I never talked to God except when I was stringing Jesus name together with an F word, or when I damned things around me when I was mad.
So here goes, I'll kick off and see where this goes.
Everything I am writing here is my own opinion, no quotes or references, so feel free to contradict me.
As I see it, there are three major Stages (in some cases four) for each one of us in arriving at The Truth. I am intentionally going to keep it as broad and generic as I can, so that it can apply to everybody.
[ ...[text shortened]... g that is outrageous and wrong! [/i]Each of us thinks OUR truth is The Truth!
Herendethelesson...
I got into some serious trouble, and I asked God to get me out of it, and told Him if He did I'd serve Him. He did, I went to church one time, then went back to my old ways just avoiding some of the more dangerous things I was doing, but I did start talking to God from that time forward. So for me there wasn't a family setting, my family didn't acknowledge God. I recall listening to some of my relatives talking about someone I was distantly related to once, they were Christian and my family couldn't get over the fact he paid 10% to the church. Much of that conversation was about he should give them that money instead.
I shared that because I don't think I fit your mold, after I got out of the Navy I felt a call on my life, and responded to it where I was saved and filled with God's Spirit. At the time I didn't quit doing drugs or anything else, but I stopped enjoying them until I got to the point I had to quit living that life. Since I didn't know anyone after I got saved except those who led me to the Lord, I really didn't hang around with them much so they never saw that side of my life, they didn't tell me to quit that life I just got convicted to where I had to.
I get that with some they are culture driven, they are family driven, their world is colored by those around them. We all *me included* cannot avoid that, but what is it that is real? If it is all just coming up with something we become happy with that seems to work for us, then there really isn't anything out there outside of our pleasure centers at work for truth. I don't think that is the case because we can seek pleasure and acquire it to the point of filling our lives with it, and it will always leave us empty. With drugs what worked for me early on didn't do enough later, it was an unending cycle.
No quotes from me here either, just my thoughts and experiences, so you know where I'm coming from, I'm going on 63, I got saved at 25. We all walk paths, but we do need a plumb line or a level to know what is, up right, or level, our perceptions can be completely off and we would never know it. If all of our moral compasses point in different directions and there is a real moral right, if we bump into the truth that might be scary. If we are unaware of it, it may appear a false or dangerous to our eyes since we have only known falsehood.
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12 Apr 19
@caljust said“All truth passes through three stages.
So here goes, I'll kick off and see where this goes.
Everything I am writing here is my own opinion, no quotes or references, so feel free to contradict me.
As I see it, there are three major Stages (in some cases four) for each one of us in arriving at The Truth. I am intentionally going to keep it as broad and generic as I can, so that it can apply to everybody.
[ ...[text shortened]... g that is outrageous and wrong! [/i]Each of us thinks OUR truth is The Truth!
Herendethelesson...
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
- Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher
13 Apr 19
@caljust saidI can agree with you on your stage 1 and 2, but I do think there is more going on than just family, society norms at play. I do think they are the largest or loudest voices in each of our lives. There are many no matter what the setting they are in that harden their hearts towards what they are being taught here no matter the message. Not sure if it is because they see the hypocritical lives of what some say verses what they do, or something else, but an internal struggle can carry the day. Your scales falling off the eyes I think is good way to identify it.
So here goes, I'll kick off and see where this goes.
Everything I am writing here is my own opinion, no quotes or references, so feel free to contradict me.
As I see it, there are three major Stages (in some cases four) for each one of us in arriving at The Truth. I am intentionally going to keep it as broad and generic as I can, so that it can apply to everybody.
[ ...[text shortened]... g that is outrageous and wrong! [/i]Each of us thinks OUR truth is The Truth!
Herendethelesson...
Paul's transformation wasn't an internal experience on the road of Damascus, he was determined to end the church, it was his goal in life until he experienced something greater than himself and his whole life up to that point. Most of the Apostles spent years with Jesus getting to known him and by the end of their lives they were ready to die for the things Jesus brought into their lives, Paul was the exact opposite and in that I thought it odd that he was the one that ended up writing most of the NT.
My point to you and others that have been having this type of conversation with me is that if it is all just whatever we want in the end there is no right or wrong, it becomes a meaningless question. Truth in the end will be for me whatever I make it, but if that isn't the case, than whatever we settle on if it isn't the truth it matters a great deal. If there is a narrow way, a door, and all who miss it, miss the truth there will be far more missing it than finding it. So this really is an important discussion and looking around at the masses for like opinions isn't necessary going to help us, following the herd could be the worse thing we do.
13 Apr 19
@kellyjay saidTruth in the end will be for me whatever I make it
Truth in the end will be for me whatever I make it, but if that isn't the case, than whatever we settle on if it isn't the truth it matters a great deal.
Indeed. When it comes to spiritual matters, all we have are our opinions and our speculation. Can you explain why your personal opinion about "the truth" "matters a great deal" to anyone apart from yourself?
13 Apr 19
1 edit
@kellyjay saidThank you for sharing, I really appreciate it.
if it is all just whatever we want in the end there is no right or wrong, it becomes a meaningless question. Truth in the end will be for me whatever I make it, but if that isn't the case, than whatever we settle on if it isn't the truth it matters a great deal. So this really is an important discussion and looking around at the masses for like opinions isn't necessary going to help us, following the herd could be the worse thing we do.
But your case certainly does fit into my generalised model, because you had a certain upbringing, which you followed up to a point, and then something happened when you where 25 to get you to change your opinion.
You are satisfied that what you "settled on" is the truth, and you are happy that you found it. That is wonderful!
But the single most important point that I was trying to make is that sometmes people find different things. For example, my son who was raised in (my) Christian home, "found" Buddhism at age 30.
As I related in previous posts, our Christian friends all prayed for him and wanted to cast out demons. Yet my spouse and I accept him and we have a wonderful loving relationship.
We see in his path the same struggles that we face - learning to be compassionate, how to face adversity, cultivating humility, humour and generosity. All these are common with my own faith, which remains basically Christian (after sheddng some useless baggage 😉 )
So that is all I was trying to say. We don't talk (with my son, for example) about His truth and Our truth, but our common principles that I have enumerated.
Last words - I believe Christ is bigger than Christianity, and if we put him in a box of our making, we are the poorer for it.
13 Apr 19
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@caljust saidI'm not disagreeing with much of what you say, we all are born, we live under the authority or rules of our family, culture, society and will in the end do one thing or another, which is I think the point you have made. We will either accept what we were taught as our own or not. None of that answers in my opinion what the real question should be or what the real issues are. Does it matter one way or another what we select?
Thank you for sharing, I really appreciate it.
But your case certainly does fit into my generalised model, because you had a certain upbringing, which you followed up to a point, and then something happened when you where 25 to get you to change your opinion.
You are satisfied that what you "settled on" is the truth, and you are happy that you found it. That is wonderf ...[text shortened]... ist is bigger than Christianity, and if we put him in a box of our making, we are the poorer for it.
We were all taught how to see things by our family, culture, society and so on, so line up on line, precept upon precept these add up. As we take these teachings in, they may seem rational no matter what we were taught! Our world views are always going to be formulated by what we take in during our lives, this helps with the shaping our views of life and reality. Our world view is like a pair of glasses which we use to view the world. The trouble with these glasses are they will highlight somethings, all the while hiding others. If we all are looking at life through the glasses darkly, then none of us are really seeing the real world. If all the world views have something highlighted and others hidden why should we trust any opinion by anyone who says their glasses are better than ours?
Today I've had some interesting things hit me through conversations and listening to a couple of speakers. The truth if it is purely subjective, all views can be justified by the one holding them. Looking at life while only using our perspectives, do we really see things as they are? I brought up a “level” earlier, because we know our perspectives can cause us to think one thing is level, when it is not. A plumb line does the same thing with the vertical as a level does with the horizontal. Reality is one thing and it can be found to be quite different than our opinions and perspectives.
This means we need truth, one that isn’t dependent upon just human opinion. Personally I like Jesus I believe Him to be the truth because who I believe Him to be, God. The things He said makes more sense than anyone. For example loving God and our neighbor as ourselves, that if we look at someone we see and we fail to love them, the love of God cannot be in us. If we want to be forgiven we ask, and we too have to forgive or we are not forgiven. This world view is quite different than the worlds, with this if we look around us and we see people we hate, people we hold grudges against, people we look down on that tells us how far from God we really are, since if we did love God and all others, if we did forgive everyone around us, there wouldn’t be a world filled with people who we view as less than, but those that should be loved by us, because of the price God paid for their forgiveness.
13 Apr 19
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@kellyjay said
I'm not disagreeing with much of what you say, we all are born, we live under the authority or rules of our family, culture, society and will in the end do one thing or another, which is I think the point you have made. We will either accept what we were taught as our own or not. None of that answers in my opinion what the real question should be or what the real issues are. ...[text shortened]... ess than, but those that should be loved by us, because of the price God paid for their forgiveness.
We were all taught how to see things by our family, culture, society and so on, so line up on line, precept upon precept these add up. As we take these teachings in, they may seem rational no matter what we were taught! Our world views are always going to be formulated by what we take in during our lives, this helps with the shaping our views of life and reality. Our world view is like a pair of glasses which we use to view the world. The trouble with these glasses are they will highlight somethings, all the while hiding others? If we all are looking at life through the glasses darkly, then none of us are really seeing the real world. If all the world views have something highlighted and others hidden why should we trust any opinion by anyone who says their glasses are better than ours?
This paragraph hits the nail on the head.
All the world views highlight something and hide other things. Nobody and nothing is perfect. The other guys opinion may be just as faulty as mine. Because ALL WE HAVE IS REALLY OPINIONS AND PERCEPTIONS! The Christian will say Jesus is the answer, the Muslim will say Mohammed. And we label that Truth.
So what are we to do? My answer to this crucial question is simply two-fold:
Firstly, do the best you can. Find out as much as you can to help you reach a rational conclusion. For example, I read the Book of Mormon and found it unsatisfactory. Go to church if you like, and do what Jesus challenged us to do: By their fruit ye shall know them! By all means study the Bible and pray for guidance. Basically, do what you can do.
Secondly: Don't judge the other guy who is also on a journey and who may reach a different conclusion! Rememberr, as you rightly quoted Paul, we ALL see through a glass darkly.
If you are a Calvinist, you will believe that God has chosen some and rejected others, and there is pretty little that you can do about it. I don't accept that.
Yet I have to acknowledge that things (people and events) have crossed my path that have helped me immensely, without me consciously looking for them. Guidance? I believe so?
I just get the eebyjeebies when people pontificate and declare that they have found the Truth. Because a few months or years later they will have found a different one!
13 Apr 19
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@caljust saidIf all we look at are our opinions, our own ideas of truth within ourselves, then none, not a single one of us can claim anything exclusive to reality. All views are of no more value than what someone else has come up with, without a level, or plumb line, we can live in twisted world and never know it. Even if someone like Jesus the Son of God comes into the world to speak truth, truth would be a threat because it would be in direct contrast to all other views. Why, because truth is very exclusive.
[quote]We were all taught how to see things by our family, culture, society and so on, so line up on line, precept upon precept these add up. As we take these teachings in, they may seem rational no matter what we were taught! Our world views are always going to be formulated by what we take in during our lives, this helps with the shaping our views of life and reality. Our w ...[text shortened]... they have found the Truth. Because a few months or years later they will have found a different one!
Why can't we judge another guy on the journey? If you feel my actions of judgment is wrong, are you not making judgment towards me?
13 Apr 19
@kellyjay saidThat’s the Catch 22, isn’t it.
Why can't we judge another guy on the journey? If you feel my actions of judgment is wrong, are you not making judgment towards me?
It is my considered OPINION that we should not judge others, and I would even recommend that opinion to others.
Am I judging you when I see you judging someone? Actually, no. I let you be, to make your own decisions. And I may be sad for you doing so, knowing it is not the best path, but I must give you the freedom to make your own mistakes.
But I agree with you that ANY choices we make involve a certain amount of judging, so we should rather be aware of (and abstain from) those judgments which have interpersonal consequences.
13 Apr 19
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@caljust saidWhat did you use to come up with not judging others, and why do you feel it important enough to tell others not to judge?
That’s the Catch 22, isn’t it.
It is my considered OPINION that we should not judge others, and I would even recommend that opinion to others.
Am I judging you when I see you judging someone? Actually, no. I let you be, to make your own decisions. And I may be sad for you doing so, knowing it is not the best path, but I must give you the freedom to make your own mistake ...[text shortened]... should rather be aware of (and abstain from) those judgments which have interpersonal consequences.
Why would you feel sad for me for making a judgment call? Are I not just doing what I do? How can I make a mistake when there are no rules that bind us all to follow them?
Consequences are very real, a world without law, rules, morals that bind us all isn't one free from consequences, no! If you go to different parts of the world where the laws are not applied equally or they have been removed, it is a dangerous place.
14 Apr 19
@kellyjay saidAt that point you believed in a god (or liked talking to imaginary friends).
I got into some serious trouble, and I asked God to get me out of it,
You were therefore already conditioned, perhaps not by family, but by education, friends, society.
If born in Iran you would have been asking Allah for help.