Illusions opinions reality

@caljust said
This is the reason why these discussions are sometimes so frustrating......

I have shown you every which way that whatever YOU believe is the Absolute Truth, somebody else says is heresy.

Your truth is relative, not exclusive, as you maintain.

But you just cannot, or will not, accept that somebody else will defend their Truth with EXACTLY THE SAME FERVOUR as you defe ...[text shortened]... is, and here you are completely round the circle backto where we were at the beginning.

Sigh.....

The thing I'm talking about is truth, not my point of view. Is truth excusive, it is, anything that doesn't line up with it is going to be less than, false. You can have people believe in the sum 2+2=4 where only some of them accept that, all others accept something else thereby are wrong. If I get sent to the store to buy milk and select milk and buy it, I have done what I was asked to do. If I pick up bread in stead I'm wrong, we live in a universe where we can correct choices and bad ones. You showing me people have opinions doesn't do squat with respect to truth, it only shows we have opinions nothing more. Reality is what it is and it doesn't change due to the number of people who accept it or not, opinion polls do, but those have nothing to do with reality.

You saying a Christian truth, a Muslim truth are those walking out their truths is meaningless too even for the Christian. Truth isn't a flavor it is reality and if even a Christian says something is truth if it isn't it isn't. A scientist can make a claim that they believe is true that doesn't mean it is, or even if what the scientist says is scientific, because they can make claims that have nothing to do with science.

Where have I said I do not accept that anyone cannot defend truth as they see it, you are making things up here, if you make a truth statement you should be able to defend it. Every post I have made has not changed, you didn't lead me somewhere to see me snap back, you just thought if you spoke your truth I would have to accept it. Sort of like what you are accusing me of isn't it?
Sigh....

@caljust said
@KellyJay

Just to clarify one more time - I certainly do not want you to abandon your belief or undermine your faith.

The only thing that I wanted to achieve with this dialogue was for you to recognize that whatever you want to receive from others (i.e. the acceptance from them that what you believe is true) you should be able to (at least according to the Golden Rule) give to others.

And I thought some posts back that we had achieved that.

Was I wrong?

I tell you what go back through my posts and find the things said by me that attacks a person, then if you have the time see what is said about me. If are concern about my attacking people instead of discussing topics. I'm sure you might find one or two it isn't my norm, what about you?

@wolfgang59 said
Did I say I know the truth?
I know very little.

You should be so humble.

I've seen the things you say to people, I think not.

@kellyjay said

Where have I said I do not accept that anyone cannot defend truth as they see it, you are making things up here, if you make a truth statement you should be able to defend it. Every post I have made has not changed, you didn't lead me somewhere to see me snap back, you just thought if you spoke your truth I would have to accept it. Sort of like what you are accusing me of isn't it?

Here's what you said:

I would have no respect for anyone who didn’t share what they thought of as truth.

What that said to me is that you DO have respect for someone who shares what they thought of as truth. Correct?

Or what did you mean by that?

Do you see that telling someone THEIR truth is wrong, and only YOUR truth is correct, is not really showing them much respect?

@KellyJay

The thing I'm talking about is truth, not my point of view.

No matter how often you protest and deny it, THE WAY YOU SEE AND EXPOUND THE TRUTH is, and can only ever be, your point of view?

@caljust said
Here's what you said:

I would have no respect for anyone who didn’t share what they thought of as truth.

What that said to me is that you DO have respect for someone who shares what they thought of as truth. Correct?

Or what did you mean by that?

Do you see that telling someone THEIR truth is wrong, and only YOUR truth is correct, is not really showing them much respect?

One who doesn’t speak up about their beliefs will never be challenged or confirmed. I have more respect for people who I disagree with me because they care, than a hundred that agree with me hiding in a corner!

@caljust said
@KellyJay

The thing I'm talking about is truth, not my point of view.

No matter how often you protest and deny it, THE WAY YOU SEE AND EXPOUND THE TRUTH is, and can only ever be, your point of view?

Duh

Never denied that!

What you seem to be overlooking is we can be right about our beliefs and wrong. The truth is out there! Where are you looking for it, what are you using to find it? If you find it, confirm it, it still will be an opinion, a matter of faith!

@kellyjay said
Duh

Never denied that!

Excuse me? This entire thread is about YOU STATING what the truth is, and then saying it is not your point of view!

You keep saying "This is the truth!" and follow up by saying "it is not my point of view!" when in fact saying that IS your pov!

And you don't seem to realise that.....

I think we are using different languages, or at least giving words different meanings.

I am getting dizzy from this merry-go round.

Bye!

@kellyjay said
Duh

Never denied that!

What you seem to be overlooking is we can be right about our beliefs and wrong. The truth is out there! Where are you looking for it, what are you using to find it? If you find it, confirm it, it still will be an opinion, a matter of faith!

How did you know what was morally right and wrong before you were a Christian?

@caljust said
Excuse me? This entire thread is about YOU STATING what the truth is, and then saying it is not your point of view!

You keep saying "This is the truth!" and follow up by saying "it is not my point of view!" when in fact saying that IS your pov!

And you don't seem to realise that.....

I think we are using different languages, or at least giving words different meanings.

I am getting dizzy from this merry-go round.

Bye!

You don’t follow conversations well now do you! Our opinions as they line up with reality are true or false. My opinions that don’t line up with reality are not, those that do line up are.

I have been consistently saying the same thing. When I tell you truth is exclusive it is a factual statement. When you say everyone lives by their own truth then no one has an exclusive truth they have their opinions that they claim is true. The thing about truth it doesn’t change due to new information it only gets confirmed. So your truth is it wrapped around you, only limited to your universe alone as you see it? Because truth in the universe isn’t limited to who sees it how. The reader of a book can tell you what they got out of a book, the author knows the true intent of it, and that is exclusive to the author.

@caljust said
Excuse me? This entire thread is about YOU STATING what the truth is, and then saying it is not your point of view!

You keep saying "This is the truth!" and follow up by saying "it is not my point of view!" when in fact saying that IS your pov!

And you don't seem to realise that.....

I think we are using different languages, or at least giving words different meanings.

I am getting dizzy from this merry-go round.

Bye!

How’s that “friendly courteous dialogue” strategy going then CalJust?

Don’t worry not having a go, it’s just amusing watching you get “kellyjay’d”

PS welcome to the Christianity community experience here at RHP.

😅

@caljust said
Here's what you said:

I would have no respect for anyone who didn’t share what they thought of as truth.

What that said to me is that you DO have respect for someone who shares what they thought of as truth. Correct?

Or what did you mean by that?

Do you see that telling someone THEIR truth is wrong, and only YOUR truth is correct, is not really showing them much respect?

Aristotle
“To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”.

We can have an opinion that is true, but that requires how it is placed within reality. Therefore having a Christian truth, doesn't mean it is a real truth if it isn't real in the reality of the universe. This is true of all beliefs and world views, it is the same for all others, those who believe in assumptions, hypothesis, or theories of science, Atheism, or any 'ism' you can come up with.

I heard a quote in a lecture but didn't get the name of who said this, I have to paraphrase too, since I couldn't write it down while listening either. If I tell you I believe in a duck, and discuss how it is real, then all the things I say about the duck are only actually real truth under one condition, and that is only as long as what I say, agrees with what a duck really is. A variety of opinions don’t alter the duck, just our thinking about it. Once our descriptions leave the reality of the duck so goes the truth.

@kellyjay said
You don’t follow conversations well now do you! Our opinions as they line up with reality are true or false. My opinions that don’t line up with reality are not, those that do line up are.

I have been consistently saying the same thing. When I tell you truth is exclusive it is a factual statement. When you say everyone lives by their own truth then no one has an exclusiv ...[text shortened]... they got out of a book, the author knows the true intent of it, and that is exclusive to the author.

All you have is your personal opinion about what is "the truth" in these matters. All you can do is speculate. Same goes for me. Same goes for CalJust.

@kellyjay said

If I tell you I believe in a duck, and discuss how it is real, then all the things I say about the duck are only actually real truth under one condition, and that is only as long as what I say, agrees with what a duck really is. A variety of opinions don’t alter the duck, just our thinking about it.

First of all, we have to agree what this thing is that you call "duck".

In South Africa alone, we have at least ten different species of duck, for example:

Whitefaced duck Dendrocygna viduata
Fulvous duck Dendrocygna bicolor
Whitebacked duck Thalassornis leuconotus
Moccoa duck Oxymura maccoa
African Black duck Anas sparsa
Yellowbilled duck Anas undulata
Comb duck Sarkidiornsmelanotos

If you have in your mind a picture of a European white domesticated farmhouse duck , and claim that THIS is the only REAL duck, you will have a problem in discussing ducks.