Is being an agnostic playing it safe?

@fmf said
Some of the prophets of the Abrahamic God that Muslims believe God used to reveal Himself to them [and the Jews and the Christians] are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Joseph and the list goes on. Jesus is one of Islam's prophets.

Here's a somewhat longer list from wiki for you, Suzianne:

Some of the people revered or mentioned in both the Quran and the Bible include: Aaron, Abel, Abraham, Adam, Cain, David, the disciples of Jesus, Elias, Elisha, Enoch, Eve, Ezra, Goliath, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Jesus, John the Baptist, Jonah, Joseph, Lot, Mary, Moses, Noah, the Pharaohs of Egypt, Samuel, Saul, Solomon, and Zachariah.

You believe God walked and talked with Adam and Eve, don't you? Just one example.

@fmf said
It can't be described as plagiarism because I did not try to pass it of as my own. If, on the other hand, you think it was an unkind act, so be it.

I'll play your kind of game. You did make it a thread of your own creation with its use.

@fmf said
Here's a somewhat longer list from wiki for you, Suzianne:

Some of the people revered or mentioned in both the Quran and the Bible include: Aaron, Abel, Abraham, Adam, Cain, David, the disciples of Jesus, Elias, Elisha, Enoch, Eve, Ezra, Goliath, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Jesus, John the Baptist, Jonah, Joseph, Lot, Mary, Moses, Noah, the Pharaohs of Egypt, Samuel, Saul, Solom ...[text shortened]... Zachariah.

You believe God walked and talked with Adam and Eve, don't you? Just one example.

If you have some issue with Islam claiming that Allah has not revealed himself, perhaps you could take that up with some Muslims.

@fmf said
I would describe myself as an agnostic atheist. The term atheist, on its own, probably more appropriately applies to Ghost of a Duke. I am agnostic about all "revealed Gods". My interest in Christianity is partly because I was myself a Christian for the better part of 30 years and partly because this forum is populated by Christians. I've had plenty of conversations with Muslims elsewhere.

You are not allowed to make your own rules, out of what you are using, which is what I stated. By the universal accepted definition of "atheist" you cannot be both. You either are a knowing atheist, or a not knowing agnostic, since the universally accepted definition of "agnostic" is one where the existence of God and gods cannot be established/known, at this time.

Therefore you are either an atheist, believing that there are no such thing as God/gods, or an agnostic, believing that the existence of these supernatural beings is uncertain. Obviously there can be various degrees of atheism, and agnosticism, just as there is various degrees of faithfulness for the existence of the various religions' God(s)

And for the believers/faithful their belief is the opposite to the belief of the declared skeptics/atheists.

And perhaps this may be the place where I should try to explain what I meant by playing it safe. I was not referring to the rewards or the penalties promised in the afterlife for being a believer, or a non believer. It's evident that what motivates fanatical faith is the assumption of a sure reward, or the fear of a sure punishment for not having faith in the certain existence of God. And what drives fanatical atheism, is the sure assumption of certainty that there is none. A level-headed faithful will question its faith, and a level-headed atheist will question its skepticism. The fanaticism on both sides is merely cynicism, because there is no room for doubt in their minds. The cynical fanatic believer will not accept the possibility that their brand of religion, with all the caveats and quirks of their imposed festivals, traditions, rules on its practice, and cultural events, may not be the true one.

Why would being agnostic is playing it safe? it's really a safe bet, since they are not betting at all. The agnostic, a true and pure agnostic, gives even odds for the existence of God, or gods in general. They realize that placing a bet on either the existence, or the non existence of God is a moot bet, since the winning, or losing hand cannot be determined, using all the rules of logic by the academics who have spent a great deal of their time on theology or science, or preferably both. But still better if philosophy is added to the study of the other two. The non academics have to rely on common sense alone, or some common sense spiced up with a little bit of personal interest and voluntary self-study in the necessary subjects, to draw their own conclusions.

Where do I stand on my own safety? I stand on my self-acquired naive belief that all things are possible. With that in mind I struggle to explain my own existence first, and then try to see it through the eyes of others, as best I can. I really think that a relationship with a supernatural being cannot be shared without a doubt, nor with certainty, as it's a personal matter. And it's another matter as to how we come to believe or not believe in a supernatural being. A very complex, and lengthy matter which as brought pain, tears, joy and laughter for thousands of years to the living, those who dare to question the very existence of God, any God.

@fmf said
God has revealed himself through scripture and to the prophets directly.

Some of the prophets of the Abrahamic God that Muslims believe God used to reveal Himself to them [and the Jews and the Christians] are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Joseph and the list goes on. Jesus is one of Islam's prophets.

"the prophets... that... God used to reveal himself to them"

Islam maintains that Allah has not revealed himself.

If you believe that God HAS "revealed himself", then that is progress, I guess.

My point in all this, that you either seem to be missing or completely glossing over, is that your belief that NO "God-figure" has revealed himself has more in common with Islam than either Judaism or Christianity.

Islam says Jesus was A prophet, not "one of Islam's prophets".

@fmf said
Here's a somewhat longer list from wiki for you, Suzianne:

Some of the people revered or mentioned in both the Quran and the Bible include: Aaron, Abel, Abraham, Adam, Cain, David, the disciples of Jesus, Elias, Elisha, Enoch, Eve, Ezra, Goliath, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Jesus, John the Baptist, Jonah, Joseph, Lot, Mary, Moses, Noah, the Pharaohs of Egypt, Samuel, Saul, Solom ...[text shortened]... Zachariah.

You believe God walked and talked with Adam and Eve, don't you? Just one example.

Just why you think I need a list of prophets escapes me.

@pettytalk said
You are not allowed to make your own rules, out of what you are using, which is what I stated. By the universal accepted definition of "atheist" you cannot be both. You either are a knowing atheist, or a not knowing agnostic, since the universally accepted definition of "agnostic" is one where the existence of God and gods cannot be established/known, at this time.

Ther ...[text shortened]... for thousands of years to the living, those who dare to question the very existence of God, any God.

Two things:

1. On this forum, anyways, it seems to me agnostics get a pass from both sides. Atheists are picked on by some theists (not all, surely), and theists are picked on by some atheists (not all, surely). Agnostics seem to be seen as a middle ground, which I think is why some on both sides tend to grab on to this flotation device to deflect criticism.

2. Have you ever logged onto this website under another name? Meaning, are you a returned user who was previously known under another name? Usually I can tell if people are returning users, but I'm not sure with you. An argument could be made either way, or so it seems.

@suzianne said
Just why you think I need a list of prophets escapes me.

These prophets... Aaron, Abel, Abraham, Adam, Cain, David, the disciples of Jesus, Elias, Elisha, Enoch, Eve, Ezra, Goliath, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Jesus, John the Baptist, Jonah, Joseph, Lot, Mary, Moses, Noah, the Pharaohs of Egypt, Samuel, Saul, Solomon, and Zachariah... are the way the Abrahamic God revealed Himself ~ and so formed the basis of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam ~ and they are the reason Islam is one of the "revealed religions".

@suzianne said
On this forum, anyways, it seems to me agnostics get a pass from both sides. Atheists are picked on by some theists (not all, surely), and theists are picked on by some atheists (not all, surely). Agnostics seem to be seen as a middle ground, which I think is why some on both sides tend to grab on to this flotation device to deflect criticism.

And yet, for years and years, I have come under a lot of criticism for my non-believer perspectives ~ which I welcome.

@pettytalk said
You are not allowed to make your own rules, out of what you are using, which is what I stated. By the universal accepted definition of "atheist" you cannot be both. You either are a knowing atheist, or a not knowing agnostic, since the universally accepted definition of "agnostic" is one where the existence of God and gods cannot be established/known, at this time.

I am an agnostic atheist. Feel free to look it up. I am not making my own "rules". I am simply offering an accurate description of my point of view.

@pettytalk said
Obviously there can be various degrees of atheism, and agnosticism, just as there is various degrees of faithfulness for the existence of the various religions' God(s)

Exactly.

@pettytalk said
And perhaps this may be the place where I should try to explain what I meant by playing it safe.

If one is "playing it safe" by being an agnostic, what danger do you think they avoid that atheists face?

@suzianne said
"the prophets... that... God used to reveal himself to them"

Islam maintains that Allah has not revealed himself.

If you believe that God HAS "revealed himself", then that is progress, I guess.

My point in all this, that you either seem to be missing or completely glossing over, is that your belief that NO "God-figure" has revealed himself has more in common with Is ...[text shortened]... an either Judaism or Christianity.

Islam says Jesus was A prophet, not "one of Islam's prophets".

Take Moses for example:

"In Islamic tradition, Musa is especially favored by God and converses directly with Him, unlike other prophets who receive revelation by God through an intervening angel. Musa receives the Torah directly from God... During his prophethood, Musa is said to have performed many miracles, and is also reported to have personally talked to God, who bestows the title 'Speaker of God' (Kalīm Allāh) upon Musa." wiki

@fmf said
Exactly.

Exactly, you are an atheist who is not certain of your atheism. You can look it up all you want, but that's what you are, in essence. That would explain exactly why you switched sides midway from being a Christian. Perhaps something unexpected will happen to you, personally, which will make you switch again. Who knows, perhaps like Scrooge, on the late evening of December 24th, your time, you will be receiving visits that will have you change your mind. And on the day of the 25th you will come back to us with the biggest goose in town, and shouting Merry Christmas at the top of your lungs.

@pettytalk said
Exactly, you are an atheist who is not certain of your atheism. You can look it up all you want, but that's what you are, in essence. That would explain exactly why you switched sides midway from being a Christian.

FMF stopped being a Christian because he was uncertain of his atheism?

Does make sense to you?