Is Jesus Christ God?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]...though I think the "plainest" meaning is the divinity of Christ...

It is my opinion that our hermeneutic -- one where we essentially begin with
the assumption in mind as a reasonab ...[text shortened]... t is being
written as...ahem, Gospel Truth (yuk, yuk).

Nemesio[/b]

Thank you for your patient response.

Given, that the authors of the NT documents were Jewish, we need to adopt their hermeneutic, one which was established in them before Jesus came on the scene: they were receptive to the notion that someone could be a prophet (moreso than we are), but they were very resistant to any claims that a person might make about their supposed divinity.

Which makes it even more surprising that the author of John would pen down direct affirmations of the divinity of Christ (e.g. 20:28) - leaving no "wiggle room" to the reader, as it were.

I don't know that they were or weren't (I don't know what letters they are citing), but I do know that many of their letters were composed with the intent of compelling people towards their belief. That is, if Ignatius did indeed write a letter or a passage of a letter that said, 'Jesus is God,' with a great deal of explanation about why he believed such a thing, you can bet it is because there was some other writer who said the opposite.

An assessment of whether this is the case would depend on the audience and the manner of the letter. If it is written to non-Christians, then it is to be expected that it would take on apologetics overtones - after all, non-Christians would be expected to oppose the divinity of Christ. Of course, this does not imply that there was division amongst Christians on the matter. If it is written to Christians, and takes on apologetics overtones, then your inference holds.

If you examine the letters, however, you will see that his mention of the divinity of Christ is not written defensively. You can find the texts from which the Ignatian quotes were taken here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

In both letters, the mention of Jesus as God occurs in the Address section, a convention at the time (seen in the NT epistles as well). That both Ignatius (Bishop of Antioch) and his reader share belief in the divinity of Christ is a given.

In other epistles from the time, we see the Apostles and Church Fathers going to great lengths to resolve theological disputes (e.g. Paul on Jewish vs. non-Jewish Christians in Romans). Ignatius argues for the orthodox position in Ephesians as well (ch. xviii). Only, he is not arguing against those that claim that Christ was not God, but against those that claim that Christ was never human! This was, of course, the Gnostic/Docetist position.

EDIT: Just reading back over the Jewish hermeneutics you talked about, isn't it even more astounding that Gnosticism/Docetism should precede Arianism?

It would be great if you could cite a few relevant pieces of evidence from the books you mentioned.

Originally posted by Omnislash
I see what you are saying and why you do not believe in the triune God concept. I understand this.

As opposed to reiterating my points, I think our discussion will be more fruitfull if I could ask you a few things. This will help me e ...[text shortened]... n restructured the covenant between man and God (i.e. salvation).

Ok...in response to Omnislash, here is why I believe what I believe. I am not belittling Christ when I say he is not God...on the contrary I am exalting him! We need a simple understanding of an overview of God's plan. He first created angels, the heavens and the earth. As any knowlegable student of the scriptures knows, there was rebellion...there is not a lot mentioned, except what is revealed in scripture, like in Isaiah 14 where Lucy(short for you know who) wanted to overthrow God, etc....you know the rest, he was cast down, etc., he then deceived the first humans into gaining dominian over all the earth. He stole the authority that God gave Adam...
Matt 4:9
9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
(NKJ)

Jesus did not argue that they were his to give....Ok, the first Adam failed miserably, but God had a plan...He knew all this would happen....why didn't he just not create Lucy in the first place? The theology can go on and on....I believe God did not want robots who were created to automatically love him. He wanted sons and daughters to have a choice. Either to love him or reject him.....God's plan was to create a 2nd Adam. Jesus Christ. He was promised in Genesis 3:15. He was born of a woman, with lineage all the way back to Adam, David, etc. But Jesus was also divine in the sense that he was made from God's seed when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary,that is to say God created seed in her....Now, here is the whole key why Jesus cannot be God. He also had to make a choice.And he could have made the wrong one, But unlike the first Adam, he made the right choice!...I say I exalt him because he was mafnificent. He had to learn the scriptures. He realized at an early age what his calling was....it was all over the old testament...he knew the scriptures inside and out, he was also the first man that could love God in return perfectly....he was in close communion with his father at all times....ala, "I always do the Fathers will" he also knew the rewards for being faithful....Head of the church, etc....Now when he was in the garden, he faced an excruciating dilemna...he knew he had to die, to redeem mankind....he even asked his father "is there any other way?"...as we know there wasn't, and he obediently said ok, let's roll..I also see the lashings he received in a different light....he was a man, who felt the pain, not a godman who may have felt nothing...I cannot identify with a godman, but a man after God's own heart I can identify with....you know the rest of the story...now in Acts it says that it pleased God to highly exalt him to the position he now holds...like Joseph and Pharoah in Genesis( great parrellel...Gen39,40)...I am also aware that many great christian men are trinitarians, and I have the highest respect for them...I learn a great deal from them, but there are many biblical doctrines I disagree with....Of course this bothered me for a time....but then after much prayer, I realized that many great men in life make mistakes, even Solomon, the wisest man to walk the earth besides Jesus....Of course this is my opinion but it is my conviction too....there are a few other things I disagree with as far as traditional christianity, but I'll save them for a future post.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Yes, but what a sad life it must be! To be without hope and without God.

how do you know that you yourself are not 'without God'? if it happens to be that God doesn't exist, then i would say you are without Him just as much as the atheist. can you provide an argument that demonstrates it is sufficiently likely that He exists? i would reall ...[text shortened]... se you are not demonstrating improvement as the grading period progresses: it's down to C- now.[/b]

You have a problem with me because I believe the bible IS God's revealed Word to mankind...it is a secet not because God is keeping it secret, but satan has deceived the whole world(almost)...the bible is not only God's word, it is His Will...many have tried to destroy it, yet it is still here.....live with it.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
You have a problem with me because I believe the bible IS God's revealed Word to mankind...it is a secet not because God is keeping it secret, but satan has deceived the whole world(almost)...the bible is not only God's word, it is His Will...many have tried to destroy it, yet it is still here.....live with it.

have you come to grips yet with the notion that invisible magical elves are controlling your every thought, deceiving you into the beliefs that god exists and that the bible is infallible? i have an old book here that tells me you have been so deceived; so it must be absolute truth, right?

D+, falling.

You have a problem with me because I believe the bible IS God's revealed Word to mankind

no. i have a problem with your methods because you cannot support anything you say, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you may in fact be wrong. make known your evidence if you are so certain of everything; i'll honestly consider your case. or make known your doubts in what you say; i'll sympathize right alongside you.

Originally posted by LemonJello
have you come to grips yet with the notion that invisible magical elves are controlling your every thought, deceiving you into the beliefs that god exists and that the bible is infallible? i have an old book here that tells me you have been so deceived; so it must be absolute truth, right?

D+, falling.

[b]You have a problem with me because I beli ...[text shortened]... ur case. or make known your doubts in what you say; i'll sympathize right alongside you.

I cannot support what I say...you are correct...I think that anyone who comes to God is led to Him...Some are content in their beliefs, and content with 70 years if they are lucky, content that this whole thing began as a big bang, content that life is an accident and that it is meaningless. If I believed that, I would simply eat, drink and be merry. And you are free to do just that, but what sense does it make?...maybe we are decendants of apes, but why are they still here? Do you believe in evolution? If so, I can respect that. I did not mean to offend you by saying what a sad life....you may have a happy life, but you must agree that it is coming to an end. Mine too, but I have hope in Christ that He will raise me up.And biblical hope does not carry todays definition, "I hope it dosen't rain", hope in the bible has a different meaning ...it means "a sure and expected end"

Originally posted by checkbaitor
Yes, but what a sad life it must be! To be without hope and without God. The movie "The Matrix" was very interesting to me. It is in some ways like life here on earth. The difference is that instead of a computer directing all our liv ...[text shortened]... saints and members of the household of God,
(NKJ)

God IS Good!

The movie "The Matrix" was very interesting to me. It is in some ways like life here on earth. The difference is that instead of a computer directing all our lives, here it is Satan. And the sad part is that unbelievers are clueless as to what is happening to them. They are influenced by satan and they are unaware...

I think The Matrix is one of the most powerful, if metaphorical, social commentaries on film. I have watched it many times. However, rather than fitting it into my already-formed worldview, I used it to question that very worldview—that had, in Morpheus’ words, been “pulled over my eyes.” That “matrix” included the religious conditioning of my upbringing, as well as other social/cultural aspects.

It's a lot "safer," of course, to apply the lessons of The Matrix to others, rather than oneself. It is also easier to apply it up to a point--to where I am now--rather than to continue the exercise on a daily basis, and keep questioning.

Originally posted by vistesd
The movie "The Matrix" was very interesting to me. It is in some ways like life here on earth. The difference is that instead of a computer directing all our lives, here it is Satan. And the sad part is that unbelievers are clueless as to continue the exercise on a daily basis, and keep questioning.

outstanding post! indeed the matrix raises all sorts of philosophical questions -- i have seen several rigorous books and articles written solely on the implications of the matrix construction. like you say, the matrix really doesn't 'fit in' with any world view -- unless, i guess, if you are the ultimate skeptic to begin with.

It's a lot "safer," of course, to apply the lessons of The Matrix to others, rather than oneself.

too true.

I have watched it many times. However, rather than fitting it into my already-formed worldview, I used it to question that very worldview—that had, in Morpheus’ words, been “pulled over my eyes.” That “matrix” included the religious conditioning of my upbringing, as well as other social/cultural aspects.

It's a lot "safer," of course, to apply the lessons of The Matrix to others, ra ...[text shortened]... o where I am now--rather than to continue the exercise on a daily basis, and keep questioning.
[/b]

My point excactly....it helped me see "traditional" christianity in a different light. It also opened my world view as far as politics and how the major media has the world in a "matrix" of their own.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
I cannot support what I say...you are correct...I think that anyone who comes to God is led to Him...Some are content in their beliefs, and content with 70 years if they are lucky, content that this whole thing began as a big bang, content that life is an accident and that it is meaningless. If I believed that, I would simply eat, drink and be merry. And ...[text shortened]... sen't rain", hope in the bible has a different meaning ...it means "a sure and expected end"

okay, thanks for this post. your grade just got a huge boost, and i think i see better where you are coming from.

yes i am currently happy and content in my non-belief. and yes i agree that my life will reach an ending; i do not yet profess to know what will happen when that time comes. i still get the impression that you see me as merely a vehicle of hedonism, just doing whatever i perceive would feel good to me at the moment. such is not the case; do i really need to explain why that is to you?

Originally posted by checkbaitor
[b]Ok...in response to Omnislash, here is why I believe what I believe.

Part 2
I believe Jesus ,a man, was qualified by God himself...God explains that a blood sacrafice had to be made...read Hebrews chapter 9.

Originally posted by LemonJello
okay, thanks for this post. your grade just got a huge boost, and i think i see better where you are coming from.

yes i am currently happy and content in my non-belief. and yes i agree that my life will reach an ending; i do not yet profess to know what will happen when that time comes. i still get the impression that you see me as merely a vehicl ...[text shortened]... at the moment. such is not the case; do i really need to explain why that is to you?

No, since I was once there myself...further more I have to admit that there have been many heroic and noble men and woman throughout history, that were unbelievers. I guess the easy way to say it is I have a burden to preach my convictions to all men, because if I am to be an example of Jesus Christ as he commands, then I have to learn to see through his eyes and heart. He loves. He knows the end of us all. Death is not a welcome friend....Life is...that is my point.
Satan offers eternal death...Jesus offers eternal life...all we need is a desire , God does the rest....that is why I said people have to be led to God,,He will force no one...we have nothing to lose, and all to gain.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
No, since I was once there myself...further more I have to admit that there have been many heroic and noble men and woman throughout history, that were unbelievers. I guess the easy way to say it is I have a burden to preach my convicti ...[text shortened]... ,,He will force no one...we have nothing to lose, and all to gain.

none of your religious views posted in this thread have anything to do with the Word , so full of the Error are you , that you have eyes but can not see, ears but can not hear. Put down the Error and listen to the Word.

Originally posted by LemonJello
outstanding post! indeed the matrix raises all sorts of philosophical questions -- i have seen several rigorous books and articles written solely on the implications of the matrix construction. like you say, the matrix really doesn't 'fit in' with any world view -- unless, i guess, if you are the ultimate skeptic to begin with.

[b]It's a lot " ...[text shortened]... " of course, to apply the lessons of The Matrix to others, rather than oneself.

too true.[/b]

Thanks. One of the difficulties is that the “matrix” is almost multi-systemic, as well as just multi-faceted. It’s easy to get trapped in what a friend of mine calls “just changing flags, but still playing in the same game.” That’s why I think the questioning and the probing of oneself is a never-ending challenge—although it can be wonderful, if you’re not too frightened of the “flux.”

Nietzsche once said something to the effect that, more important than the courage of one’s convictions, is the courage to mount an attack on one’s own convictions. Which reminds me of a quote from Emerson: “Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” Oh well, some days my mind is “littler” than on others… 😕

Originally posted by vistesd
Thanks. One of the difficulties is that the “matrix” is almost multi-systemic, as well as just multi-faceted. It’s easy to get trapped in what a friend of mine calls “just changing flags, but still playing in the same game.” That’s why I think the questioning and the probing of oneself is a never-ending challenge—although it can be wonderful, if you’re no ...[text shortened]... is the hobgoblin of little minds.” Oh well, some days my mind is “littler” than on others… 😕

...adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. 🙂 i used to have that whole essay committed to memory (probably still could rattle off the majority of it). i agree it is useful and difficult at the same time to question your own views.

i also like: "The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." (Twain)

Originally posted by frogstomp
none of your religious views posted in this thread have anything to do with the Word , so full of the Error are you , that you have eyes but can not see, ears but can not hear. Put down the Error and listen to the Word.

Which is...your word?