Is Jesus Christ God?

Originally posted by LemonJello
...adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. 🙂 i used to have that whole essay committed to memory (probably still could rattle off the majority of it). i agree it is useful and difficult at the same time to question your own views.

i also like: "The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." (Twain)

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." (Twain)

Wonderful!

It’s easy to get trapped in what a friend of mine calls “just changing flags, but still playing in the same game.” That’s why I think the questioning and the probing of oneself is a never-ending challenge—although it can be wonderful, if you’re not too frightened of the “flux.”

Nietzsche once said something to the effect that, more important than the courage of one’s convictions, is the courag ...[text shortened]... is the hobgoblin of little minds.” Oh well, some days my mind is “littler” than on others… 😕[/b]

Well said, however, if the bible is true and satan does have sway over the whole world(1 John 5:19)and satan appears as a shining light, then just the fact that he has been around for thousands of years....he just might be wiser than any of us...and trying to "questioning and the probing of oneself" without a force outside of oneself, may prove to be deceiptful to oneself, wouldn't you say?
As much as I hate satan, I respect his power and wisdom...only Jesus Christ can help us here. All else plays into his hands. A man can be educated to the hilt, and still be clueless.
Maybe that's why the bible says that God laughs at man's wisdom.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
Well said, however, if the bible is true and satan does have sway over the whole world(1 John 5:19)and satan appears as a shining light, then just the fact that he has been around for thousands of years....he just might be wiser than an ...[text shortened]... Maybe that's why the bible says that God laughs at man's wisdom.

I respect your position and your articulation of it. However, it is not mine (for a lot of reasons that have been debated in numerous threads here). I think perhaps we’re at a friendly impasse here—at least for now.

Originally posted by checkbaitor
Which is...your word?

Just as I thought you're just another "christian" preacher that is blind to the Word. If you weren't blind you'd know who's word.

Originally posted by LemonJello
...adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. 🙂 i used to have that whole essay committed to memory (probably still could rattle off the majority of it). i agree it is useful and difficult at the same time to question your own views.

i also like: "The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." (Twain)

I like this one from Twain:

"Sir, I have been through it from Alpha to Omaha, and I tell you that the less a man knows the bigger the noise he makes and the higher the salary he commands."
- "How I Edited an Agricultural Paper," 1870

Originally posted by frogstomp
Just as I thought you're just another "christian" preacher that is blind to the Word. If you weren't blind you'd know who's word.

Why don't you open our eyes?

Originally posted by checkbaitor
Why don't you open our eyes?

One much greater than I , has already attemped to do just that. His words are enough.

Originally posted by frogstomp
One much greater than I , has already attemped to do just that. His words are enough.

And that would be?

Originally posted by Langtree
John 1:1, En arche hv o' logos kai o'logos nv pros ton theon, kai theos hn o' logos. God was the Word.:

That sentence haunts me. To understand what that means--that would be understanding.

Originally posted by Omnislash
Well, if Jesus was not God then a lot of people are in a lot of trouble, as this eliminates any notion of salvation by grace.

I think a lot of people are in trouble, A BIG lot of people, and
not just christians...

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think a lot of people are in trouble, A BIG lot of people, and
not just christians...

"Well, if Jesus was not God then a lot of people are in a lot of trouble, as this eliminates any notion of salvation by grace."

Not true..Jesus does not have to be God...in fact the opposite is true...
Jesus lineage went back to Adam...He is the 2nd Adam...
1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(NKJ)

He was concieved in Mary ..God provided the seed....and God approved of him...

Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
(KJV)

God raised him up, he did not raise himself...

Acts 2:32-33
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

God exalted him...

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(KJV)

He had to die so that we could receive the promise of salvation, holy spirit, etc

Heb 9:16-17
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
(KJV)
It pleased God to bless and reward his son...
Col 1:19
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
(NKJ)

Originally posted by checkbaitor
"Well, if Jesus was not God then a lot of people are in a lot of trouble, as this eliminates any notion of salvation by grace."

Not true..Jesus does not have to be God...in fact the opposite is true...
Jesus lineage went back to Adam...He is the 2nd Adam...
1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The las ...[text shortened]... son...
Col 1:19
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
(NKJ)

Checkbaitor, Your proof texts don't detract from the deity of Christ, because of the context. The focus on most of the text is His humanity. Which sets Him apart from all other spiritual leaders. But what I can't seem to understand why you used Colossians 1:19 as a proof text, first, it runs against you line of argument, if I understand that you are trying to prove Jesus wasn't God? Second, following on the thought, isolating that verse in particular is suspect, since it is a line of thought beginning in verse 13, the Paul is expounding on the deity of Jesus. In particular verse 15 which is the highwater mark, where Paul refers to Jesus as the first born. The Greek word for first born is prwtotokos(w is actually the omega, the long o, as opposed to the short "o" omicron. The prefix for Prototokos is proto, where we get our word prototype. It means first or earlier, which carries with it the meaning of superiority in time, before all creation. There is no apparent reference to natural birth, but supernatural origin. The verses that follow support the thought of first born, before all creation, in fact the creator. I have had experiences with a group on this verse, and realize that their grasp of koine Greek is suspect, especially when one tries to use English grammar in place of Greek. An interesting fact is, in the Greek the article, preceeds God in verse 15, it looks like this, os estin eikwn (image) tou theou. Tou is the article, in the genitive form, as is God(theou) shows possession.(the article must always agree with the noun that follows it.) Jesus possesses the image of God, or the likeness, so He is God. This is why I appreciate Greek so much, it provides more clarity of meaning than English ever could. God bless and good day.

Originally posted by Langtree
Checkbaitor, Your proof texts don't detract from the deity of Christ, because of the context. The focus on most of the text is His humanity. Which sets Him apart from all other spiritual leaders. But what I can't seem to understand why you used Colossians 1:19 as a proof text, first, it runs against you line of argument, if I understand that you are tr ...[text shortened]... k so much, it provides more clarity of meaning than English ever could. God bless and good day.

Colossians 1:15-20



He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the Cross. (NIV)





1. As with all good biblical exegesis, it is important to note the context of the verses and why they would be written and placed where they are. Reading the Book of Colossians reveals that the Colossian Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had, in practice, forsaken their connection with the Head, Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18 and 19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ’s headship over his Church, and the epistle to the Colossians provided just that.



2. These verses cannot be affirming the Trinity because they open with Christ being “the image [eikon] of the invisible God.” If Christ were “God,” then the verse would simply say so, rather than that he was the “image” of God. The Father is plainly called “God” in dozens of places, and this would have been a good place to say that Jesus was God. Instead, we are told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the “image” of another thing, then the “image” and the “original” are not the same thing. The Father is God, and that is why there is no verse that calls the Father the image of God. Calling Jesus the image of God squares beautifully with his statement that, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9 and 10).



There are Trinitarian theologians who assert that the word eikon (from which we get the English word “icon,” meaning “image,” or “representation&rdquo😉 means “manifestation” here in Colossians, and that Christ is the manifestation of God. We believe that conclusion is unwarranted. The word eikon occurs 23 times in the New Testament, and it is clearly used as “image” in the common sense of the word. It is used of the image of Caesar on a coin, of idols that are manmade images of gods, of Old Testament things that were only an image of the reality we have today and of the “image” of the beast that occurs in Revelation. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says that Christians are changed into the “image” of the Lord as we reflect his glory. All these verses use “image” in the common sense of the word, i.e., a representation separate from the original. 1 Corinthians 11:7 says, “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God.” Just as Christ is called the image of God, so men are called the image of God. We are not as exact an image as Christ is because we are marred by sin, but nevertheless the Bible does call us the “image” of God. Thus, the wording about being the image of God is the same for us as it is for Christ. We maintain that the words in the Word must be read and understood in their common or ordinary meaning unless good reason can be given to alter that meaning. In this case, the common meaning of “image” is “likeness” or “resemblance,” and it is used that way every time in the New Testament. Surely if the word “image” took on a new meaning for those times it referred to Christ, the Bible would let us know that. Since it does not, we assert that the use of “image” is the same whether it refers to an image on a coin, an image of a god, or for both Christ and Christians as the image of God.



3. God delegated to Christ His authority to create. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating “one new man” (his Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the “new man,” their new nature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 4:24).



4. The Church of the Body of Christ was a brand new entity, created by Christ out of Jew and Gentile. He had to also create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church—see Rev. 1:1, “his angel&rdquo😉 and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth—see Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible” (1:16).



5. Many people think that because Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him all things were created” that Christ must be God, but the entire verse must be read carefully with an understanding of the usage of words and figures of speech. The study of legitimate figures of speech is an involved one, and the best work we know of was done in 1898 by E. W. Bullinger. It is titled Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and is readily available, having been reprinted many times.

(copied and pasted from Biblicalunitarians.com)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Colossians 1:15-20

(copied and pasted from Biblicalunitarians.com)

dj2, is that you?