Is The Bible Accurate?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Devout can be defined as deeply and sincerely religious, or devoted to a personal interest or cause. Lincoln was that in regards to God as I have shown with my sources. The fact that some testified that he was a Christian and some testified that he wasn’t just goes to show that people have different ideas ab very would
have continued.

Can you confirm if I've understood you correctly?

Nemesio[/b]

By this standard, you would have to admit, then, that I am a devout
Christian. Do you? You certainly cannot deny that I am interested
in the Bible, and I certainly strive to espouse the tenets of compassion.

I might believe that you are devout, but since you have chosen not to reveal what religion you belong to I couldn’t say what you are devout in regards to. I have a pretty good feeling though that it is not Christianity.

I am confused by your term 'absolute relativity.' Could you explain?
It would seem to me that if Lincoln was a cultural relativist, he
would agree that he would simply 'live and let live' and slavery would
have continued.

Lincoln grew up in a society that accepted slavery. For him to abolish it he had to have decided at some point that it was wrong. This means that he rejected what society told him, and made a moral judgment.

When I talk about “absolute relativity” I’m basically referring to the idea that there is no right or wrong. Right and wrong is always just somebody else’s opinion. If a murder can benefit himself in some way by murdering a person, who’s to say that he is wrong? Basically, absolute relativity can be used to justify anything.

A strong relativist believes that there is no universal code of ethics that everybody is subject to. The concept of human rights does not exist, accept within the society in question.

Now having said that, we are all relativists to a certain degree. It’s important to understand why a culture does something, and why it works for them before we judge. On the other hand, there comes a point when we need to act. If the world, or just the developed nations of the world, could all agree that the trouble and violence that’s going on today is intolerable, then the world would be a much better place.

For example, Genocide has happened all through out history. From the earliest recorded records up through modern day Sudan, and it continues to happen to this day. Politicians are mostly only concerned with the interests of their own country, and so the trouble festers and spreads. In this day and age when it is just a matter of time before some madman gets his hands on a nuke device, this way of thinking will change one way or the other. We’ll either learn the easy way or the hard way.

Originally posted by Nemesio
3. Lincoln had faith for a time, but lost it.

Where do your citations come from? Letters from when? Speeches from when?

My source is offering chronological evidence which strongly supports #3.

[i]IN the prosecution of this inquiry, the testimony of one hundred and twenty witnesses has been presented. The testimony of twenty of these witnesses is ...[text shortened]... in the same
way that Thomas Paine was spiritual, but a 'devout Christian,' c'mon!

Nemesio

[/i]Actually, according to the history channel’s recent program on Lincoln, Lincoln wrote that book “Infidelity” back when he was a young man. Later it is clear that he accepted both God and the Bible. The fact that some testified that he was not a Christian may well have been because some still felt that slavery was Christian.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]The Gospels were written anywhere from 60-125 AD. It’s understandable that the exact order of events may not match. The fact that there are multiple accounts of the same events is just stronger evidence that they occurred. Do the quibbles that you mentioned matter in regards to why Jesus was sent here?
...[text shortened]... he dead four
days after his expiring -- is absent in three of the texts?

Nemesio[/b]

Originally posted by The Chess Express
The Gospels were written anywhere from 60-125 AD. It’s understandable that the exact order of events may not match. The fact that there are multiple accounts of the same events is just stronger evidence that they occurred. Do the quibbles that you mentioned matter in regards to why Jesus was sent here?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Have you studied stemmatics by any chance? The source evidence strongly supports that Sts Matthew's and Luke's accounts are based on St Mark's (along with Q). That there are multiple accounts is simply a matter of the later authors' use of the earlier one in St Mark.

Do you agree that Matthew. Mark, Luke and John were all disciples of Jesus, and they all were the authors of the Gospels?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
The Gospels all agree on the main points.
1. Jesus was the messiah
2. Jesus came to save the world from the consequences of sin.
3. Jesus was crucified to fulfill his mission.
4. Jesus rose from the dead.

Can you humor me and cite the Scriptural citation for 2 and 3 in all four Gospels?

Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Matthew 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 20:19
And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all

Matthew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mark 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Mark 13:34
For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mark 14:9
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Mark 14:21
The son of man indeed goeth (to be crucified), as it is written of him…(to pay for the sins of the world)

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (after the crucifixion had occurred).

Mark 16:20
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luke 3:5
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

Luke 6:30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 8:1
And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 8:4
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:

Luke 9:6
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Luke 11:10
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 19:26
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Luke 22:22
And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined…(To be crucified and pay for the sins of the world).

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:16-18 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.

John 6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:26
I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Do you feel that 'Blessed are the poor' and 'Blessed are the poor in spirit' connote the same thing?

Possibly, where is the contradiction?

A history book about Apollo that failed to discuss the landing would be a poor book. Wouldn't you agree? These are books about Jesus and His ministry. How do you account for the fact that His landmark miracle -- raising Lazarus from the dead four days after his expiring -- is absent in three of the texts?

Perhaps the authors felt that the main points were that

1. Jesus was the messiah
2. Jesus came to save the world from the consequences of sin.
3. Jesus was crucified to fulfill his mission.
4. Jesus rose from the dead.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You know, Antione Lavoisier predicted the PET scanner 2 centuries before it came into existance. This is the same guy who discovered Phlogiston, what we now call oxygen. He was beheaded in the French Revolution. Since he got the PET scanner thing right, and was beheaded, does that automatically mean that he is the son of god, or at least a prophet?

This is too ridicules to answer. 🙄

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Originally posted by The Chess Express
The Gospels were written anywhere from 60-125 AD. It’s understandable that the exact order of events may not match. The fact that there are multiple accounts of the same events is just stronger evidence that they occurred. Do the quibbles that you mentioned matter in regards to why Jesus was sent here? ...[text shortened]... s of sin.
3. Jesus was crucified to fulfill his mission.
4. Jesus rose from the dead.

So what? A dozen people in a period of between 30 and 120 years after the events apparently happened wrote down their interpretation of events that it is likely they may or may not have been part of. Ever heard of chinese whispers? There must have been a basis for these accounts, but that basis may have been a falsified or exagerated story in the first place. Neither you nor I can say.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
This is too ridicules to answer. 🙄

Why? You use the (apparant) fulfillment of some extremely wooly and ultimately very debatable prophecies as proof of the bibles veracity. Laviosier was extremely precise in his prediction, way way more precise than the bible. Making a prediction that is later verified does not show divine influence, merely a reasonable predictive intuition. The bible has got so much crap in it some of it is bound to be correct.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Why? You use the (apparant) fulfillment of some extremely wooly and ultimately very debatable prophecies as proof of the bibles veracity. Laviosier was extremely precise in his prediction, way way more precise than the bible. Making a prediction that is later verified does not show divine influence, merely a reasonable predictive intuition. The bible has got so much crap in it some of it is bound to be correct.

Did Laviosier

1. Perform miracles?

2. Was the messiah?

3. Teach how to live?

4. Forgive sins?

5. Speak to God, and explain what it takes to get into Heaven?

6. Become the most influential man in all of history?

7. Start the largest religion the world has ever seen?

Tell you what, if you want Laviosier to be your savior you go right ahead and worship him. I think you deserve a savior like him.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So what? A dozen people in a period of between 30 and 120 years after the events apparently happened wrote down their interpretation of events that it is likely they may or may not have been part of. Ever heard of chinese whispers? There must have been a basis for these accounts, but that basis may have been a falsified or exagerated story in the first place. Neither you nor I can say.

History is a science as well, and most historians accept that Jesus lived. Two thousand years ago they didn’t have the printing press. The fact that we have the scripture and that there are as many separate accounts of Jesus’ life is pretty good evidence.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Did Laviosier

1. Perform miracles?

2. Was the messiah?

3. Teach how to live?

4. Forgive sins?

5. Speak to God, and explain what it takes to get into Heaven?

6. Become the most influential man in all of history?

7. Start the largest religion the world has ever seen?

Tell you what, if you want Laviosier to be your savior you go right ahead and worship him. I think you deserve a savior like him.

Can you prove that Jesus did 1 through 5 (I'll accept 6 & 7 though)? You have to prove it without referring to the bible of course, because we cannot verify it's authenticity. Of course 7 would never have happened were the worlds population not so large. That's agricultural developments upto the development of antibiotics (1940's), and decreased mortality due to disease thereafter...

Originally posted by The Chess Express
History is a science as well, and most historians accept that Jesus lived. Two thousand years ago they didn’t have the printing press. The fact that we have the scripture and that there are as many separate accounts of Jesus’ life is pretty good evidence.

The question is 'are they truly independant accounts?' As far as I'm concerned it is entirely likely that they are only versions of one original story, which have mutated over the 100 years between inception and being written down. Of course, there would be further mutation until the invention of the printing press, as well as, of course, translational errors. Ask yourself this, what is more likely, someone writes something down wrong or someone walks on water?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Can you prove that Jesus did 1 through 5 (I'll accept 6 & 7 though)? You have to prove it without referring to the bible of course, because we cannot verify it's authenticity. Of course 7 would never have happened were the worlds population not so large. That's agricultural developments upto the development of antibiotics (1940's), and decreased mortality due to disease thereafter...

3 & 5 are pretty much proven through the scripture. 1, 2 & 4 you’ll need to find proof of yourself. Scientists believe that proof needs to be sought after in order to be found right? Since there is no way to prove 1, 2, & 4 through science, why not look within yourself for the answers? It couldn’t hurt…

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The question is 'are they truly independant accounts?' As far as I'm concerned it is entirely likely that they are only versions of one original story, which have mutated over the 100 years between inception and being written down. Of course, there would be further mutation until the invention of the printing press, as well as, of course, translati ...[text shortened]... ourself this, what is more likely, someone writes something down wrong or someone walks on water?

The question is 'are they truly independant accounts?' As far as I'm concerned it is entirely likely that they are only versions of one original story, which have mutated over the 100 years between inception and being written down. Of course, there would be further mutation until the invention of the printing press, as well as, of course, translational errors.

I agree that the Gospels are of coarse versions of one story, the life of Jesus. I also agree that they have been translated a number of times. One of the main things that the scripture tells us is to find the truth within ourselves. It really makes no difference how much of the scripture we know, what matters is how close to God we are.

Example: The devil quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus. The point is that simply memorizing scripture means nothing.

Ask yourself this, what is more likely, someone writes something down wrong or someone walks on water?

I can’t help but chuckle at this. 😀

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]The question is 'are they truly independant accounts?' As far as I'm concerned it is entirely likely that they are only versions of one original story, which have mutated over the 100 years between inception and being written down. Of course, there would be further mutation until the invention of the printing press, as well as, of course, trans ...[text shortened]... s something down wrong or someone walks on water?

I can’t help but chuckle at this. 😀[/b]

Ask yourself this, what is more likely, someone writes something down wrong or someone walks on water?

I can’t help but chuckle at this. 😀[/b]

LOL! See what I mean though? Without the printing press there is so much scope for mistakes! When I send something to the publishers it STILL comes back with errors, and some of them aren't even mine! I'm not saying there isn't something fundamental to the bible, but I'd be more prepared to think of this Jesus guy as someone like Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela than as the son of god. It is in peoples very nature to exagerate things, and with the long time spans, undoubtable copying errors and peoples innate desire to believe in something (look at how many religions there are in the world) I think that it's very likely that Jesus was just a nice guy who got cannonized.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
... but I'd be more prepared to think of this Jesus guy as someone like Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela than as the son of god. ... I think that it's very likely that Jesus was just a nice guy who got cannonized.

I'm afraid that's not an option that the Lord left us.

Consider His claims. He claimed to be equal with God (John 10:30), to be able to forgive sin (Mark 2:5-12), that He would be resurrectied (Matthew 12:40), etc.
Now either these claims are true or they are not.
If they're true, the Jesus really is the Lord.
If they are not, then either Jesus didn't realize His claims were false, or He did.
If He didn't realize His claims were false, then He's a lunatic, on par with one who claims he's a baked potato.
If He did realize His claims were false, then He's a liar and a fool, because they killed Him for his lies.
As C.S. Lewis puts it, “You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

DF