11 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillQuote a few of the passages written by any apostle particularly Paul and lets see how difficult they are.
Paul's difficult words could have been any number of things which we elsewhere see him expound upon. Colossians, Ephesians, and certianly Second Corinthians all possess matters of considerable spiritual depth and maturity along with initial more elementary matters.
11 Jan 12
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Explain the relationships of the following statements by Paul, jaywill.
Why does Paul tell us to include the name of Jesus in our prayers to
God the father. Why not just pray to God the father only? Why do we
do it through Jesus and what about the Holy Spirit which Paul does not
mention here?
Ephesians 5:20
always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillYes in my opinion .. really ! Can you find another single detailed lecture by Paul on Christ? Here is the passage shown below. Notice that at the end of the lecture several things happened :
This is the most detailed record of Paul preaching the things concerning Christ, and it contains nothing about the doctrines which you say are so important.
Really ?
- the Gentiles were interested in hearing the lecture again
- the Jews became envious of the interest taken by the Gentiles.
Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead: And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
(Acts 13:13-45)
The problem with the Jews as demonstrated in the book of Galatians mentioned earlier, is that they could not see how salvation could be so simple. Paul preached belief in Christ, explained about his death and resurrection. All that was required was to belief, baptism and a new life in Christ. The Jews went around creating obstacles to the Gentiles and insisted on following of the old Mosaic law.
One would think that any more details about the nature of Christ and God would be easy for Paul to explain in clear simple language.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by JS357Did Paul suggest anything about the divinity of Jesus?
One reason Paul is simpler that Jaywill is that Jaywill is dealing with an issue that came to the front well after Paul, perhaps even unknowingly instigated in part by Paul. The issue is of course the reconciliation of the divinity of Jesus with the monotheism of the Jewish theology represented in the OT.
edit: represented in what became the OT.
"Accordi ...[text shortened]... God among them, a presence and power that they called the Holy Spirit."
wikipedia: trinity
Paul himself said that the head of Christ is God.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillThe authority on Christ and who he is and what exactly is his relationship with God ... IS CHRIST. After that comes Paul who was sent by Christ to preach to the Gentiles.Jaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
The words of Christ are exceedingly important. But we believe that [b]"all Scripture is God breathed ...". I take the whole Bible as the word of Christ ...[text shortened]... corporate entity of the mingling of God and man.[/b]
None of them said anything about the trinity.
Isaiah was a prophet. Prophets prophesy about what people will say or do, and he said that people will call Christ certain things/names etc. I still cannot get what Isaiah has to to with doctrines laid down by Christ and Paul. Isaiah said people will call Christ 'the Mighty God' ..
Isa 9:6 ... his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Here he says people will despise and reject Christ. Are we to do that as well?
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
This is what happens when people dont focus on Christ and Paul. The OT has no doctrines for the Christian. Its all in the New Testament
11 Jan 12
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Originally posted by Rajk999Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for
Did Paul suggest anything about the divinity of Jesus?
Paul himself said that the head of Christ is God.
the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the
holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David
according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the
resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus
Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to
bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s
sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; to all who are
beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God
our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 1:1-7 NASB)
Paul goes on to say the following in Romans 1:20-22 NASB:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal
power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through
what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they
knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the
incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds
and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
The King James Version of the Holy Bible translated verse 20 this way:
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly
seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power
and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
The greek word is translated "Godhead" instead of "divine nature".
When speaking of Jesus, Paul tells the Colossians the following:
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty
deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary
principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all
the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made
complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
(Colossians 2:8-10 NASB)
And from the King James Version:
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit,
according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of
the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness
of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all
principality and power.
The same greek word is again translated "Godhead" in the King James
Version, but it is now translated "Deity" in the New American Standard
Bible.
P.S.
But regardless of the translation the greek word applies both to God and
to Christ. This means the fullness of Diety, Godhead, and divine nature
of God also dwells in the body of Jesus the Christ.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsGood. So now how you get from that point, to the statement that...
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for
the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the
holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David
according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the
resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of ho ...[text shortened]... f Diety, Godhead, and divine nature
of God also dwells in the body of Jesus the Christ.
Christ and God are one and the same.
11 Jan 12
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Originally posted by Rajk999
I hate to say this but nothing in that post makes sense to me.
I have read the NT probably hundreds of times in the last 40 years or so and I can say that there are just a few passages which are confusing.
I hate to say this but nothing in that post makes sense to me.
I have read the NT probably hundreds of times in the last 40 years or so and I can say that there are just a few passages which are confusing.
Nothing made sense ?
What is it that you would like to see me attempt to clarify, if anything ?
Of course, unless I am deliberately writing nonsense, I intend that what I write does make some sense.
So what there needs to make more sense ? Maybe you could select the things that seem related to the thread.
11 Jan 12
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Originally posted by Rajk999
The authority on Christ and who he is and what exactly is his relationship with God ... IS CHRIST. After that comes Paul who was sent by Christ to preach to the Gentiles.
None of them said anything about the trinity.
Isaiah was a prophet. Prophets prophesy about what people will say or do, and he said that people will call Christ certain things/names e us on Christ and Paul. The OT has no doctrines for the Christian. Its all in the New Testament
The authority on Christ and who he is and what exactly is his relationship with God ... IS CHRIST. After that comes Paul who was sent by Christ to preach to the Gentiles.
None of them said anything about the trinity.
None of them said anything about the doctrine of the Trinity ?
Or none of them said anything about the Trinity ?
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Universalism is true and that ALL sinners ever existed will be saved ?
11 Jan 12
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Originally posted by Rajk999I don't believe anyone has said Christ and God are the same persons.
Good. So now how you get from that point, to the statement that...
Christ and God are one and the same.
We say Christ, being the Son of God, is of the same substance as God.
However, when we talk of God, we are usually talking of God the Father
unless we specify God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. For lack of better
words, we say same "substance" or "nature". This is in contrast to the
"substance" or "nature" that make up humans. We might say there is
one substance of God and another substance of man. However, this
substance of God can not be separated. This is one of the mysteries
of God mentioned in the new testament. So It is not clear to anyone
until we become like Christ at the resurrection of the dead.
P.S. The Doctrine of the Trinity is man's feeble attempt to explain
part of this mystery. You should read the whole official doctrine if
you haven't already.
11 Jan 12
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Originally posted by jaywillYou need to specify what aspect of universalism you are referring to as its a very broad term.The authority on Christ and who he is and what exactly is his relationship with God ... IS CHRIST. After that comes Paul who was sent by Christ to preach to the Gentiles.
None of them said anything about the trinity.
None of them said anything about the doctrine of the Trinity ?
Or none of them said anything about the Trinity ? ...[text shortened]... is. Do you believe that Universalism is true and that ALL sinners ever existed will be saved ?
All people who believe in Christ [the way Paul described Christ], and follow through with the good works which both Paul and Christ specified, will be saved Yes .
Edit : I also believe that there is hope for people who do not know of Christ, and this is explained in Romans 2 from verse 10. We had discussed this a couple years ago and you disagreed that anyone can get salvation without knowing of Christ.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsFirst the expression 'God the Son' is not in the Bible so I dont use it. I refer to Christ the same way he is described in the Bible.
I don't believe anyone has said Christ and God are the same persons.
We say Christ, being the Son of God, is of the same substance as God.
However, when we talk of God, we are usually talking of God the Father
unless we specify God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. For lack of better
words, we say same "substance" or "nature". This is in contrast to the
...[text shortened]... f this mystery. You should read the whole official doctrine if
you haven't already.
Is there some part of the NT which says that the substance of God cannot be separated?
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillI say I dont understand becuase you started off as if you were taking up the challenge of VoidSpirit to explain how 'the head of Christ is God' does not make the trinity doctrine absurd.I hate to say this but nothing in that post makes sense to me.
I have read the NT probably hundreds of times in the last 40 years or so and I can say that there are just a few passages which are confusing.
Nothing made sense ?
What is it that you would like to see me attempt to clarify, if anything ?
Of course, unless I ...[text shortened]... re needs to make more sense ? Maybe you could select the things that seem related to the thread.
But you went off on a tangent and did not deal with the issue.
11 Jan 12
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't remember if there is or not, but I know something is stated
First the expression 'God the Son' is not in the Bible so I dont use it. I refer to Christ the same way he is described in the Bible.
Is there some part of the NT which says that the substance of God cannot be separated?
like that in the official Trinity Doctrine of the Church. We know there
is only one God and not three Gods so that implies something about
God can not be separated into parts, yet Peter referred to the Holy
Spirit as God and God, Himself called His Son, God.
11 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I say I dont understand becuase you started off as if you were taking up the challenge of VoidSpirit to explain how 'the head of Christ is God' does not make the trinity doctrine absurd.
But you went off on a tangent and did not deal with the issue.
I say I dont understand becuase you started off as if you were taking up the challenge of VoidSpirit to explain how 'the head of Christ is God' does not make the trinity doctrine absurd.
But you went off on a tangent and did not deal with the issue.
I see.
Well there are THREE alternatives open to me.
1.) I can admit that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3)
And then I can use that verse to deny John 1:1 that the Word was God.
2.) I can admit that the Word was God according to (John 1:1) and then use that verse to deny that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3)
3.) Or I can believe both passages in humility and faith - The head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3) and also the Word was God ( John 1:1)
I have found that the greatest blessing is in taking the third way. I believe all that the Bible has said about who Christ is.
I refuse to suppress one aspect, (either one), of the paradox in order to uphold the other.