11 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungTesting God implies a lack of faith. Since faith is what He requires, why would He ask for faith and then say it doesn't matter if we give it?
Who said anything about being tested? I'd get tired of spending my limited time - as I am a limited being - answering questions. God is not a limited being supposedly. He should be able to answer all the questions he wants and still do anything else he wants. If I'm thinking about answering childrens' questions all the time I can't do other thi ...[text shortened]... if someone else chooses to interfere, then one of them has their free will curtailed even more.
Do they have their free will curtailed by God or other free willed beings? Who's fault would it be? Is God to be blamed for loving everyone rather than some?
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBut if you flew to the moon, you would asphyxiate.. He has your best interests at heart.
How about if I will to fly to the moon? My free will is violated there, right? And by what? By the natural limitations God supposedly gave me. He could have given me the ability to fly to the moon, right?
11 Mar 05
2 edits
Originally posted by DarfiusI don't think you're even trying to understand my position, Darfius. The purpose of punishment is to prevent greater suffering by causing less suffering. Hell is way more suffering, if it exists, than is caused by all the murders that have ever taken place. Therefore it doesn't do what punishment should; minimizing the pain people suffer. The fact that it's hidden behind mysticism and sounds so much like a superstition and requires blind faith to believe in it means many people might murder simply because they are unaware of the consequences, which is another poor quality in a punishment.
The punishment for murderers should be whatever it takes to keep them from murdering again, and to set an example for others not to murder. The objective would be to avoid the murdering, not to punish. Causing suffering to the murderer unate, because He gives you bias chances, due to His love for you.
Who should the judge be? Judge of what? Who cares who repents? Whether someone feels sorry for what they did has nothing to do with whether people suffer by being murdered or by having their friends and family murdered. I could care less who repents or who doesn't; it's totally and completely insignificant except so far as it creates or lessens suffering and happiness.
Nobody deserves to go to Hell. Nobody. Period. It doesn't matter what they did, and it doesn't matter what their motives are.
I don't think 'rejecting my maker' deserves any punishment.
Yes, I want something for nothing, if I can get it. What's wrong with that?
But now you have to accept it and show you love Him back by following Him. That is, after all, why we are here in the first place.
I don't believe that's true.
Depends. What if giving my kid a hug causes him to be late for class? What if him being late for class causes his teacher to yell at him? What if he gets dejected and acts up, getting suspended? What if this is the beginning of a domino effect between his teacher and him until finally my son is a juvenile delinquent?
God is supposedly omnipotent. In that case, he can be as nice as he wants without any consequences. The tragic story you're describing arises due to the fact that I can't give my kid a hug without taking time which other people are demanding. Are you telling me you believe God cannot do nice things for people without circumstances spiralling out of his control? He has to be mean in order to avoid unpleasant consequences? That means he is limited in power.
I am absolutely willing to give God a fair chance. If he exists, he is not a moral being and he hides from me. Therefore it's his own fault and not mine if I don't believe in him and wouldn't respect him even if I did.
11 Mar 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DarfiusWhat if I willed not to asphyxiate?
But if you flew to the moon, you would asphyxiate.. He has your best interests at heart.
Anyway, you're being inconsistent. Either God gives us free will, even if we use it against our best wishes, or he controls us so that we cannot exercise free will if it goes against our best wishes. Or does he do both depending on his whim?
11 Mar 05
2 edits
Originally posted by DarfiusMessed up? Sure. But what do you expect if He gives everyone free will? Some will undoubtedly turn away from Him.
Wow, so some people must fail? That's messed up.
Messed up? Sure. But what do you expect if He gives everyone free will? Some will undoubtedly turn away from Him.
We're denying it because we aren't convinced the test you still didn't come away convinced, I am shocked and dismayed.
You said 'graded on a curve'. I don't think you understand the significance of that. Graded on a curve means no matter how good the least good person is, that person will fail; likewise, no matter how bad the best person is, that person will not fail. Every individual's consequences will depend on the performance of all other people as well as their own. I doubt you meant that.
would you rather err on the side of caution or throw caution to the wind?
Which side is the side of caution though? Maybe God is exactly opposite in every respect from what you believe. In that case I should do everything you think is sinful in order to get to Heaven. Nobody knows; nobody has any legitimate clue whatsoever.
You're making it sound like...
What I am saying is that it's impossible to respect everyone's free will, because what one person wills will often be at odds with what another person wills. Which one wins out depends on the capabilities God gave to each of them.
The victim, unfortunately, used their free will to get into the predicament.
So the victims of 9-11 chose to have their building be hit by a plane? They used their free will to get into that predicament?
Do you think parting seas are as possible as parting your hair?
I think it's less likely that a human can accomplish the former than the latter. If you think otherwise, you're the one who's reading the Bible with bias. What if I told you I parted the Atlantic Ocean and kept it secret from you because I am God? Wouldn't you doubt that this was true?
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungYour parents did not allow you to cross the street alone when you were a toddler. Did you feel controlled?
What if I willed not to asphyxiate?
Anyway, you're being inconsistent. Either God gives us free will, even if we use it against our best wishes, or he controls us so that we cannot exercise free will if it goes against our best wishes. Or does he do both depending on his whim?
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungDo you understand what it is really all about? GOD is the creator of all things. Are you understanding that life as we know it now, was the way tha it is supposed to be? Do you think that GOD created this life to be as we know it? Have you read GENESIS 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth? I mean read and thought about it. What it says and means. That one verse of Scripture if you accept it will lead you to understand the reason, and the purpose of what is going on in this life of ours.
I don't think you're even trying to understand my position, Darfius. The purpose of punishment is to prevent greater suffering by causing less suffering. Hell is way more suffering, if it exists, than is caused by all the murders that have ever taken place. Therefore it doesn't do what punishment should; minimizing the pain people suffer. The f ...[text shortened]... his own fault and not mine if I don't believe in him and wouldn't respect him even if I did.
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by MaustrauserYou deny that GOD is, are you searching for understanding to prove yourself wrong?
I deny the existence of god. I would have thought I would have made that abundantly clear by now.
As I have said in many posts. I am an a-theist. It means "without god".
Henry
11 Mar 05
You said 'graded on a curve'. I don't think you understand the significance of that. Graded on a curve means no matter how good the least good person is, that person will fail; likewise, no matter how bad the best person is, that person will not fail. Every individual's consequences will depend on the performance of all other people as well as their own. I doubt you meant that.
Nope. Thanks for pointing that out.
Which side is the side of caution though? Maybe God is exactly opposite in every respect from what you believe. In that case I should do everything you think is sinful in order to get to Heaven. Nobody knows; nobody has any legitimate clue whatsoever.
Where is the god who claims doing the complete opposite of everything gets you into heaven? If we were created, it is LOGICAL that the god would contact us in some way. To say otherwise shows your bias.
What I am saying is that it's impossible to respect everyone's free will, because what one person wills will often be at odds with what another person wills. Which one wins out depends on the capabilities God gave to each of them.
Capabilities...weather...time...there are many factors, all random.
So the victims of 9-11 chose to have their building be hit by a plane? They used their free will to get into that predicament?
They chose to go to work that day.
I think it's less likely that a human can accomplish the former than the latter. If you think otherwise, you're the one who's reading the Bible with bias. What if I told you I parted the Atlantic Ocean and kept it secret from you because I am God? Wouldn't you doubt that this was true?
I would doubt it because you're a contemporary and because I've never heard of that happening. Now if you claimed your ancestor from 500 years did it, I'd have less doubt. I'd be more interested in checking it out for myself. Further back? More interested.
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusWhy are you letting an unbeliever frustrate you? If you have spoken THE WORD OF GOD, then you have spoken truth. We are in a war and satan is a defeated foe.
Show me where any of the Gospels say Simon carrying the cross the whole way, please.
Your lying is really beginning to agitate me. I find it more and more difficult to forgive you everytime.
Though you're helping me somewhat, since everyone can see that you're clearly lying to keep up.
11 Mar 05
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioWouldnt reference to nail holes be an indication of a derived story if indeed the Romans used rope and not spikes ? If ropes were used the only possible explaination would then be He was threaded to the cross.
Two observations:
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]Barbabbas is described as someone who took part in an insurrection, in which murder was committed. Mark 15:7; Luke 23:19. That would make him more of a revolutionary than a ps ...[text shortened]... ng other than
torture value.
Just another 2 cents.
Nemesio
that barabas story is getting close to the Templars and t conspiracy stuff about the Holy Grail.
also wouldnt the loss of blood throught his holey feet have caused enough shock to send him into an unconcious state.
suffocation was the usual cause of death in crucifictions. and the Gospels do make it clear that the Romans didnt consider him enough of and a threat to them to require special i.e. more painfully execution anyway.
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by darvlayI am a man. And it is because no1 is mean and rude simply for the sake of being mean and rude. If he has a problem that he would like help for, he should share it rather than lashing out at others. I would be more than happy to try and help him with it. I am not more than happy to watch him spread his hatred.
Because he is a stubborn kid who thinks he has all the answers.
Poor kid.
11 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusJust finished high school? Never had a job?
I am a man. And it is because no1 is mean and rude simply for the sake of being mean and rude. If he has a problem that he would like help for, he should share it rather than lashing out at others. I would be more than happy to try and help him with it. I am not more than happy to watch him spread his hatred.
Don't kid yourself, kid.