Islam Is Right About Women

@fmf said
I have met and worked with plenty of women who were uncompromising and domineering.

If a woman - or a man, for that matter - wishes to be submissive and keep quiet, then that's fine.

I don't think a religious proscription of women NOT being submissive and NOT keeping quiet makes much sense.

Culture may create some 'facts on the ground' regarding the relative status or ...[text shortened]... notion that this should be underpinned by some sort of divine edict sounds very unconvincing to me.

What is interesting is that our religion has endless prescriptions for men to be quiet and obedient to their elders in the monasteries. It also has many, many, many sayings from the Church fathers about how we must not become spiritually deluded and seek spiritual titles, and, we are also famous for encouraging people to not seek material satisfaction.

I think it would not be inaccurate to say that Christianity generally tends to encourage the totality of people to be submissive to the will of God, and no such command is exclusive to women.

@fmf said
Do you think women should also be excluded from proactivity and assertiveness in politics because of "fundamental differences in temperament"?

No. There was no command anywhere found to be somehow questioning or disloyal of women in roles of secular authority.

The Ecumenical Patriarch frequently calls upon a leading female scholar to accompany him to speak on matters concerning environmentalism. He has not passed her up by any means, nor has he passed anyone else up, in regards to these things.

@philokalia said
This is actually broader than what is prescribed.

The concept applies to them not being given authority to teach within the Church as Priests.

And, for that matter, if we are speaking quite broadly, we all have an obligation to follow the hierarchy who has the authority to pronounce the proper interpretation and make calls in regards to how our religion should be o ...[text shortened]... and if the Priest was female, it would be impossible for her to be a mother in these circumstances.

Job sharing and delegating tasks ~ to single women, women with grown-up children, to unmarried men, to older men etc. etc. ~ seems the way to go. You haven't said much about "temperament" and you are capitalizing the p in Priest for some reason.

@philokalia said
I think it would not be inaccurate to say that Christianity generally tends to encourage the totality of people to be submissive to the will of God, and no such command is exclusive to women.

But there is a command exclusive to women, according to your beliefs, for them to be submissive to men and keep quiet in matters of religion, which says they are not permitted to teach or to exercise authority over a man, right?

@philokalia said
The concept applies to them not being given authority to teach within the Church as Priests.

Which verse says this?

@fmf said
Job sharing and delegating tasks ~ to single women, women with grown-up children, to unmarried men, to older men etc. etc. ~ seems the way to go. You haven't said much about "temperament" and you are capitalizing the p in Priest for some reason.

It isn't even necessary to speak on points of temperament to illustrate why it is men who should be Priests, and that they are the only one's capable of doing it, in every context.

Priest is an important role and occupation, not unlike Senator or President or Mayor. It should be capitalized in the context of referring to a specific office of priesthood.

Why wouldn't it be capitalized?

@philokalia said
And, for that matter, if we are speaking quite broadly, we all have an obligation to follow the hierarchy who has the authority to pronounce the proper interpretation and make calls in regards to how our religion should be offered to the world and the likes.

Can a woman, in your view, not "pronounce the proper interpretation" of religious texts, beliefs and doctrines? Is that a "temperament" issue as well?

@fmf said
Which verse says this?

This actually gives us the opportunity to potentially talk about the cosmic beliefs of the Church as it relates to this, because this, of course, comes from the famous 1 Timothy 2 chapter that deals with gender in relationship to the Church:

8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

In modern parlance, perhaps you would say that women are more agreeable and gullible, as a general rule, and this lead to the fall.

Is this universally true as a characteristic of women? It isn't, just as how there are women that can beat men in arm wrestling competitions, but this is rather rare, and this often comes about through the efforts (conscious or unconscious) of the persons involved, or through some flaw on the part of the man.

@fmf said
Can a woman, in your view, not "pronounce the proper interpretation" of religious texts, beliefs and doctrines? Is that a "temperament" issue as well?

I am afraid you are mistaken here: no single person can actually come up with the beliefs and doctrines of the Church. It has to be established through a council.

Councils do not have genders, and the process which occurs at a General occurs through both the presence of the Bishops and also through their prayers to God, so it is a process led by God.

As fara s the first thing -- proper interpretation of religious texts -- this is achieved not through the Priest or even the Bishop necessarily thinking on their own what they think it believes, but through their own extensive studies and education that they have received from reading the Bible, the Saints, the theologians, and, of course, the education they received directly from their Bishop.

Priests also have to clear with their Bishop the things that they wish to do. Bishops also function in the context of a massive community of Bishops, and their wrongdoing or radical pronouncements could also result in them forfeitign their office through another process.

None of these things happen in a vacuum, naturally.

@philokalia said
Why wouldn't it be capitalized?

If it's being used as a common noun, it's an error to capitalize it. It's OK in German, or so I believe. If you are referring to someone's official title then it becomes a proper noun, like Priest Nigel, Bishop Shane etc. e.g. "There are ten priests from the Greek Orthodox Church waiting to be disciplined for telling a member of the congregation that fornicating with a women was OK if that women had threatened to leave him if he doesn't fornicate with her". Compare to, "Priest Nigel, as is his official title, is popular with some of his fornicating flock because he tells them it is OK."

@philokalia said
It isn't even necessary to speak on points of temperament to illustrate why it is men who should be Priests, and that they are the only one's capable of doing it, in every context.

It was you who suggested "temperament" is the reason.

@fmf said
But there is a command exclusive to women, according to your beliefs, for them to be submissive to men and keep quiet in matters of religion, which says they are not permitted to teach or to exercise authority over a man, right?

The catechist of one of the most famous Priests today, Fr. Josiah Trenham, was a nun.

Clearly, our church's interpretation of the Bible applies specifically to the offices of the Priesthood and Bishophoric.

I also have not heard of some Orthodox country pronouncing that there shouldn't be female teachers in schools. I know that our Sunday school classes have been led by women here, and we also have female catechists.

@philokalia said
Councils do not have genders, and the process which occurs at a General occurs through both the presence of the Bishops and also through their prayers to God, so it is a process led by God.

When you say "councils do not have genders", you mean they comprise both men and women?

@fmf said
If it's being used as a common noun, it's an error to capitalize it. It's OK in German, or so I believe. If you are referring to someone's official title then it becomes a proper noun, like Priest Nigel, Bishop Shane etc. e.g. "There are ten priests from the Greek Orthodox Church waiting to be disciplined for telling a member of the congregation that fornicating with a women was ...[text shortened]... s his official title, is popular with some of his fornicating flock because he tells them it is OK."

Oh, sure, I understand that perspective.

You know, in the US Army we were told to always capitalize the word 'soldier' to show respect to it.

These things can be stylistic and perhaps indicative of a person's tastes.

But I understand that if, say, I was preparing some publication that aimed to be neutral, your way would be best. ^^

@philokalia said
No, it has to do with fundamental differences in temperament that have huge influences on the behavior and attitudes of men and women -- something demonstrated across cultures and socieites.

Do you think your views on the correct role of women ~ and the "fundamental differences in temperament" you have pointedly not explained or described in any relevant way ~ has got something to do with you being a beta male?