15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidIf you don't want to discuss the underpinning of institutionalized sexism and how you may be simply sucking from its "intellectual" pipe now that you have joined the Greek Orthodox Church, that's OK by me. I assume you've got little more to offer than the "scientific" justification you tried a few pages OK. If that's all you've got, thanks. I will bear it in mind.
Is there a topic besides me that you'd like to discuss?
15 Oct 19
@fmf saidWe know that the personality traits of men and women can be incredibly different and thus they have fundamentally different temperaments:
If you don't want to discuss the underpinning of institutionalized sexism and how you may be simply sucking from its "intellectual" pipe now that you have joined the Greek Orthodox Church, that's OK by me. I assume you've got little more to offer than the "scientific" justification you tried a few pages OK. If that's all you've got, thanks. I will bear it in mind.
A new study confirms that men's minds come from Mars and women's from Venus. In an article recently published in the online journal PLoS ONE, Italian cognitive psychologist Marco Del Giudice and his collaborators compared the personality traits of men and women in a sample of over 10,000 people and found huge differences. Women scored much higher than in men in Sensitivity, Warmth, and Apprehension, while men scored higher than women in Emotional Stability, Dominance, Rule-Consciousness, and Vigilance. When many personality traits were considered simultaneously, there was only a 10% overlap between the distributions of these traits in men and women. Essentially, the study suggests that when it comes to personality men and women belong to two different species.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/games-primates-play/201201/gender-differences-in-personality-are-larger-previously-thought
What do you make of this?
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidIt may well explain why women do not - or would not - emerge in positions of leadership in the context of conservative, corporate Christianity as often as men do [assuming the women have not been largely barred from doing so by the men in control], but it certainly does not explain why they ought to be disallowed from doing so.
What do you make of this?
That women do not have the prerequisite attributes to be spiritual leaders is basically the perspective of males who think women shouldn't be spiritual leaders and that only men do have the prerequisite attributes.
Your it-says-here "scientific reasons" indicate that spiritual leadership from women might well be different from the male leadership provided by traditional. conservative, paternalistic, corporate Christianity. So what?
15 Oct 19
@fmf saidI'd point out that:
It may well explain why women do not - or would not - emerge in positions of leadership in the context of conservative, corporate Christianity as often as men do [assuming the women have not been largely barred from doing so by the men in control], but it certainly does not explain why they ought to be disallowed from doing so.
That women do not have the prerequisite attribut ...[text shortened]... le leadership provided by traditional. conservative, paternalistic, corporate Christianity. So what?
- The 10% overlap is extremely small. Some of the overlap will also be men overlapping with women. So, what amount of women actually overlap significantly with the male psychological profile? If it was right down the middle, it'd be 5%.
- Even given that number, the role of women as the primary caretakers of children (something recognized by secular courts in the US) accounts for the fact that they are less fit for being Priests, a full-time and highly demanding job.
- Women's reproduction is vital to villages and societies particularly before the modern era. It is still actually vital, it's merely that we do not observe it as much in modern society. The idea that women would be encouraged to be negligent in their motherhood to pursue a role as Priest is odd...
Especially considering the distinct differences in temperament.
It's probably even true that the overlap exists more in modern times precisely because education has been geared toward minimizing gender distinctions in the West (this is a report that came out of Italy).
Your it-says-here "scientific reasons" indicate that spiritual leadership from women might well be different from the male leadership provided by traditional. conservative, paternalistic, corporate Christianity. So what?
It's very fundamentally different and this is vital to the health of the church. ^^
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidWomen are different from men. Bears poo in the woods. The Pope is a Catholic. It is because it is.
It's very fundamentally different and this is vital to the health of the church. ^^
You believe it is vital to the health of the church [not to let women lead] because you believe it is vital to the health of the church [not to let women lead] and you think "scientific reasons" support blocking them.
That men like you think that men are better than women at being in positions of spiritual or religious leadership is nothing more than an "it's better because it's better" type "argument".
It certainly isn't a justification for preventing women from becoming leaders if that is what their knowledge and personalities and interpersonal skills result in.
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidThis is not a justification for disallowing women from assuming positions of leadership. This is simply a reason why many don't assume such positions.
Even given that number, the role of women as the primary caretakers of children (something recognized by secular courts in the US) accounts for the fact that they are less fit for being Priests, a full-time and highly demanding job.
15 Oct 19
1 edit
@philokalia saidNor is this a justification for disallowing women from assuming positions of leadership. Males and females have different psychological profiles. So what?
The 10% overlap is extremely small. Some of the overlap will also be men overlapping with women. So, what amount of women actually overlap significantly with the male psychological profile? If it was right down the middle, it'd be 5%.
Some men will not be suited to leadership and some women will not be suited to leadership.
This cannot be the basis for barring women from positions of leadership, to my way of thinking.
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidSimply saying that there are "distinct differences in temperament" is not a justification for preventing women from assuming positions of leadership. It might explain why there are more men than women in those positions, but it does not justify women being excluded.
Especially considering the distinct differences in temperament.
15 Oct 19
@fmf saidIt's better because,
Women are different from men. Bears poo in the woods. The Pope is a Catholic. It is because it is.
You believe it is vital to the health of the church [not to let women lead] because you believe it is vital to the health of the church [not to let women lead] and you think "scientific reasons" support blocking them.
That men like you think that men are better than women a ...[text shortened]... coming leaders if that is what their knowledge and personalities and interpersonal skills result in.
- men and women have different roles and different personality profiles, and
- the male personality profile and role is the one most proper and fit for the priesthood and the role of Bishop.
I cited an article here -- and in another thread -- showing the distinctions between the two temperaments.
Have you shown us anything? Have you cited anything?
15 Oct 19
@fmf saidSo you would suggest that women who have male characteristics and are unlike women should be allowed to be Priests, right?
Simply saying that there are "distinct differences in temperament" is not a justification for preventing women from assuming positions of leadership. It might explain why there are more men than women in those positions, but it does not justify women being excluded.
Now, in a community which wants people to play out their gender roles and believes that God created them male and female, you are setting a weird precedent. The idea, then, that a man would take on the roles of being a woman is likewise unsettling and upsetting to the traditional view here.
You see that, right?
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidYes, yes, yes. Men and women are different.
It's better because,
- men and women have different roles and different personality profiles, and
- the male personality profile and role is the one most proper and fit for the priesthood and the role of Bishop.
I cited an article here -- and in another thread -- showing the distinctions between the two temperaments.
Have you shown us anything? Have you cited anything?
They are different because they are different.
You think men are a more "proper" choice for Bishop etc. You believe they are more proper because you believe they are more proper.
But why prohibit women from leadership roles?
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidI think women should not be barred from taking on leadership roles if they want to. It has nothing to do with "male characteristics".
So you would suggest that women who have male characteristics and are unlike women should be allowed to be Priests, right?
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidWhat on Earth are you on about?
The idea, then, that a man would take on the roles of being a woman is likewise unsettling and upsetting to the traditional view here.
15 Oct 19
@philokalia saidSo what? Why do "the distinctions" require women to be forbidden from assuming a leadership role?
I cited an article here -- and in another thread -- showing the distinctions between the two temperaments.