It desires to have you

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

The phrase "sin is crouching at your door" is part of a conditional statement which is " if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door". So "sin is crouching at your door" only IF "you do not do what is right". It is not "sin is crouching at your door" IF you are "without God".
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According to the story what was the RIGHT that if he did he would also be accepted ?

It would have been to come to God to offer in worship an acceptable offering.

You're the "context, context" man. For Cain to do right to be accepted as Abel was would have been to offering an offering which had the blood.
Cain invented the first man-made religion.

He came to approach God standing on his own merit rather than standing upon the redemption of the slain animal. He thought he had no need for redemption.

John saw the significance of Cain's rejected offering as evil before God -

" ... And for what reason did he slay him [Abel] ? Because his [Cain's] works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (1 John 3:12b)

Cain's presumptive man-made offering was evil. Abel's was according to what God required, blood to signify the need for redemption.


The verse further goes on to state that "it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Clearly God is saying that not only CAN Cain "rule over it" - he MUST "rule over it". Cain would do so by "do[ing] what is right".
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You have a point that God did not expect Cain to be completely passive. But according to the writer of Hebrews Cain's offering was not according to faith but instead was self-righteous presumption.

"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying to his gifts; and through faith, though he has died, he still speaks." (Heb. 11:4)

Abel's offering was with the significant blood of redemption. It was acceptable to God and God accounted it as Abel's righteousness. That is a righteousness of faith in God's justifying redemption.

Cain came offering his good works presumptuously. God rejected it. God saw that it was not out of faith and was evil. This is the context of God telling Cain patiently that if he did better he too would be accepted.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The way I see it? Me ?

Did I quote from the book of Rajk999 Chapter 5:1-3?
Or did I quote from the writings of Paul. from Peter, from Christ.

Is there something Paul said that you did not understand? If so let me know and maybe I can help.

Yeah, why do you obfuscate by boiling down Christianity into a bumper sticker?

Is that the only way it makes sense to you?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
The examples you ask for make no sense, I did not ask whether it is ever humanly possible to do the right thing, of course it is, the question was whether you can consistently do it, without ever failing, day in day out for the entire duration of your life. You are clearly dodging this question for obvious reasons.

You asked me a question about what's humanly possible and humanly impossible, in terms of 'doing the right thing', in an attempt to press home some sort of convoluted ideology you have, and then promptly refused to give any examples of 'doing the right thing' that lie either side of the possible-impossible boundary. It's you who is dodging.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
...the question was whether you can consistently do it, without ever failing, day in day out for the entire duration of your life. You are clearly dodging this question for obvious reasons.

And you are clearly asking your daft question for obvious reasons. First, I'd like you to address this relationship you have claimed there is between "sin" and behaviour that is not "humanly possible" and give me some illustrative examples.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Genesis 4 NIV
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Without God does anyone avoid sin?

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here we see that sin is no longer crouching at our door, instead it is within us putting us
at odds with God while we walk in the flesh.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, ...[text shortened]... ng at our door, instead it is within us putting us
at odds with God while we walk in the flesh.

Interesting thought. And I appreciate the verses being put together the way you did.

It is this 7th chapter of Romans that was the cause of me finally believing that the account of Adam and Eve in the garden must be history. For the question remains - "When then did sin begin to dwell in man's fallen body?"

Did sin begin to dwell in the members of our body sometime AFTER Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ? Or did sin begin to dwell in fallen man from the time they ate ?

Was sin outside man and crouching to enter mankind sometime after Adam's transgression? Or did it begin to dwell in man and crouch to get in the "door" beginning from that transgression of Adam ?

I think I should believe that when he ate, sin entered. And Romans 5:12 says -

"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world ..."

Now I do not understand everything about this. But it seems Adam was the beginning of sin entering into the world. Cain was a victim of the already progressing onslaught of sin working in man.

But how could eating of some fruit cause sin to dwell in man's body ? I do not really know. Maybe at some time I will understand more. However, I did notice that the Gospel of John shows Judas eating a moral served at supper AND subsequently Satan an evil spirit entered into him.

"Then he, while reclining thus on Jesus' breast, said to Him, Lord, who is it?

Jesus answered, It is he for whom I will dip the morsel and to whom I will give it, And dipping the morsel, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, ... And at that moment, after the moral, Satan entered into him. (See John 13:25-27a)

Like Adam and Eve, Judas was a key figure in the universal battle between God and Satan. Both the first couple and the disciple who betrayed Jesus were very strategic to Satan's attack against the will of God.

While I could not make a major doctrinal matter out of this, I think we can see that when Judas crossed the line and took into his mouth that morsel offered by Christ, Satan followed into him after the food.

Anyway, it was this chapter of Romans 7 which caused me to finally regard the account of the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as history. Sin and death began to reign in man from that act of disobedience.

Originally posted by sonship
Like Adam and Eve, Judas was a key figure in the universal battle between God and Satan. Both the first couple and the disciple who betrayed Jesus were very strategic to Satan's attack against the will of God.

You believe Judas' betrayal of Jesus was an "attack against the will of God"? What would Christian theology be now if Jesus had not been executed?

Originally posted by FMF
You believe Judas' betrayal of Jesus was an "attack against the will of God"? What would Christian theology be now if Jesus had not been executed?

Judas was a 'pawn' in an already made out plan. Someone had to do it. Jesus knew the betrayal was coming, by Judas.

The question is, would Judas have committed the betrayal on his own? Without the 'fate plan'? In the same way as God hardening the heart of Pharoah in the Old Testament.

Originally posted by chaney3
Judas was a 'pawn' in an already made out plan. Someone had to do it. Jesus knew the betrayal was coming, by Judas.

So my question to sonship is: was the betrayal and the subsequent events (execution etc.) in accordance with "the will of God" or was it an "attack against the will of God"?

This is what sonship said "Judas was a key figure in the universal battle between God and Satan [...] the disciple who betrayed Jesus were very strategic to Satan's attack against the will of God".

Originally posted by FMF
So my question to sonship is: was the betrayal and the subsequent events (execution etc.) in accordance with "the will of God" or was it an "attack against the will of God"?

This is what sonship said "Judas was a key figure in the universal battle between God and Satan [...] the disciple who betrayed Jesus were very strategic to Satan's attack against the will of God".

Well, I'm not sure what sonship will say, but it appears that God intervenes with certain people to fulfill His purpose.

Hardening the heart of Pharoah ten times in the Moses story, and the 'bet' with satan in the Job story are two examples.

My opinion is that Judas was actually part of God's plan in the crucifixion of Jesus.
Judas has always received criticism for his betrayal, but does he deserve it? Probably not.

The objections and questions about free will verses predestination are too difficult for me to answer.

I tend to be pragmatic about this mysterious matter. It makes no sense for me to say - "God, O God I am predestinated to be like Judas - a son of perdition. You just planned that I be a son of perdition."

Rather everything in the Gospel prompts me to pray more along this line -

"Lord Jesus, I thank You that you have predestinated me unto sonship through Jesus Christ. Thankyou for your marking me out, Your selecting me, Your calling of me. You, Lord Jesus, are my destination and my destiny. Praise You Lord Jesus."

I have experience of God honoring my faith to thank and praise and petition Him according to the gracious positive things in the New Testament.

It makes no sense to me to exercise my faith toward the negative things of God's word.
Everything taught is about exercising faith towards the positive, the merciful, the faithful matters of His grace.

Okay, Paul writes:

"So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills." (Rom. 9:18)

Don't thank God for hardening you. That makes no sense. Rather thank Him in this way instead -

"Lord Jesus, in Your name soften my heart. Lord Jesus, I even anticipate it and thank You that You are taking rather AWAY my hardness. Thank You Lord Jesus that You desire to soften my heart towards You."

When it comes to the mysteries of predestination and free will, use faith to pray and seek according to the positive side.

Originally posted by chaney3
Well, I'm not sure what sonship will say...

Well it's him that I asked. You didn’t say the thing I am asking about, he did.

Originally posted by sonship
The objections and questions about free will verses predestination are too difficult for me to answer.

Well, in that case, don't attempt to answer a question about free will verses predestination. Just answer the question that I asked you about what you said.

Originally posted by chaney3
Judas was a 'pawn' in an already made out plan. Someone had to do it. Jesus knew the betrayal was coming, by Judas.

The question is, would Judas have committed the betrayal on his own? Without the 'fate plan'? In the same way as God hardening the heart of Pharoah in the Old Testament.

Do you think Judas is in heaven or in hell?

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you think Judas is in heaven or in hell?

Heaven.
He was part of God's plan for Jesus.