Jesus saves VS. works

Originally posted by Rajk999
Walking with Jesus probably is not natural for YOU. Speak for yourself.
Walking with Jesus is natural for some people.

Sinners nature is to sin, walking with God goes against that.
For one who claims we don't need Jesus to do good works to be right with God you seem
to be changing your tune here.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Sinners nature is to sin, walking with God goes against that.
For one who claims we don't need Jesus to do good works to be right with God you seem
to be changing your tune here.

Regardless of all the to-ing and fro-ing, and back and forth discussions, in the final analysis it is those who do good works will get into the Kingdom of God... that is the doctrine of Jesus. Makes no difference to Christ how they do it .. Christ will judge all nations .. all are either sheep or goats

I hope I see you there pal ..🙂 No more on this topic.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What's with the animal slaughtering? Why do you think it is wrong to eat meat?till lives and

OK lets break this down........

Are you saying what's wrong with keeping animals in cages under artificial light and force feeding them.

Are you saying its OK to inject meat with chemicals to slow down the rotting and to make the meat appear red.

Are you saying its OK for the operator to hit the animal with belts and whips and give it electric shocks on the back legs to control its movement

Are you saying its OK for the operator to forcibly restrain the animal position by two hydraulic steel gates that are clamped around its neck with 1500 lbs. of hydraulic force.

Are you OK with the operator putting a large compressed air gun to the animals head and firing a 10" inch steel bolt into its brain.

Are you Ok when the operator fails to slaughter the animal the first time and then has to fire that 10" bolt into the animals head again and again and again.

In this Age of kali Yuga........Man shall witness many strange and shocking things.

For instance shocking but true......The Pope is the leader of the animal killing and meat eating Catholic Church.

That is like saying... .Martin Luther King is a member of the Klu Klux Klan

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless of all the to-ing and fro-ing, and back and forth discussions, in the final analysis it is those who do good works will get into the Kingdom of God... that is the doctrine of Jesus. Makes no difference to Christ how they do it .. Christ will judge all nations .. all are either sheep or goats

I hope I see you there pal ..🙂 No more on this topic.

I wish nothing less for you either.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Regardless of all the to-ing and fro-ing, and back and forth discussions, in the final analysis it is those who do good works will get into the Kingdom of God... that is the doctrine of Jesus. Makes no difference to Christ how they do it .. Christ will judge all nations .. all are either sheep or goats

I hope I see you there pal ..🙂 No more on this topic.

In the final analysis it is those who have faith in Christ as their substitute for sin that will get them saved. Not works.
Anyone who is depending on works will fall short. It is impossible.

Originally posted by Dasa
OK lets break this down........

Are you saying what's wrong with keeping animals in cages under artificial light and force feeding them.

Are you saying its OK to inject meat with chemicals to slow down the rotting and to make the meat appear red.

Are you saying its OK for the operator to hit the animal with belts and whips and give it electric shocks ...[text shortened]... Church.

That is like saying... .Martin Luther King is a member of the Klu Klux Klan

I also don't agree torturing animals is a good thing. But killing an animal for food is good.
If you are suggesting eating vegetables...that is what food eats!
God gave animals for food, not to be equal with man.
Now, my understanding is, that in the Kingdom of God, we will no longer eat animals.
I might be wrong, but I think we will eat fruit, etc.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
In the final analysis it is those who have faith in Christ as their substitute for sin that will get them saved. Not works.
Anyone who is depending on works will fall short. It is impossible.

Christ said no such thing. Here is what he actually said:

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. (Luke 6:46-49)

Let me translate for you - Its a waste of time to claim faith in Christ if you do not do what Christ says. If you hear Christ and follow his commandments you are a wise man with a firm foundation that can withstand all manner of temptation and sin. Those who hear without obeying the commandments you are a foolish man that is heading for destruction.

Clearly it is a persons obedience to Christ that will count in the end . as Christ and the Apostles said a few thousand times

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ said no such thing. Here is what he actually said:

[i]And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream b ...[text shortened]... nce to Christ that will count in the end . as Christ and the Apostles said a few thousand times

What are his commandments but to believe on him? Cling to him who IS our righteousness, who is our works, who is our Redeemer.

Eph 1:7-8
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
NKJV

Eph 1:11-12
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Eph 2:5-9
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Eph 2:14
For He Himself is our peace,
NKJV

Eph 2:15-17
having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
NKJV

Eph 3:17
that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith;
NKJV

Rom 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
NKJV

You do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power in them. You adhere to Old Testament rituals and not to the Good News.
What you preach is NOT Good News.
You are not walking in the spirit nor in the power of God.

1 Cor 4:19-20
if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter
..You do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power in them. You adhere to Old Testament rituals and not to the Good News.
What you preach is NOT Good News.
You are not walking in the spirit nor in the power of God.
..

I have quoted nothing from the Old Testament. Your 'good news' will turn to weeping and knashing of teeth for those like you that cherry pick the writings of Paul, and completely ignore the warnings of Christ and invent and fabricate doctrines like the Administration of Grace which denies the teachings of Christ and claim that they are not applicable to you, then turn around and say Jesus is my saviour but I wont listem to him. Jesus will give me eternal life but I wont obey him... Good luck with that attitude.

Here is an example of wrong interpretation.. You quoted this:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

But completely ignored Pauls warnings in the very next chapter about refraining from sin:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Rom 6:1-2)

This the how teachings of Paul are generally laid out in most of the letters to the churches.
1. Paul explains how people can convert from their Gentile doctrines [or Mosaic Law] to the doctrine of Christ
2. Paul explains the process of believing in Christ and understanding the purpose of his death and resurrection
3. Paul explains the importance of righteousness and good works
4. Paul explains the lifestyle of the Christian and the importance of refraining from sin
5. Paul explains what happens to the Christian if sin and evil continues

The simple minded Christian take Pauls words in #1 and #2 and run with that and claims that they have eternal life. The may also read Paul's teachings in #3, #4, #5 but use the rest of the bible to explain them away, and generally ignore them.

The serious Christian takes all 5 types of teachings and understands how important it is to refrain from sin as eternal damnation is the result of continuous willful sin. The serious Christian that does and obeys, is that kind that Christ will welcome into his kingdom. The others are doomed for destruction in the lake of fire.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have quoted nothing from the Old Testament. Your 'good news' will turn to weeping and knashing of teeth for those like you that cherry pick the writings of Paul, and completely ignore the warnings of Christ and invent and fabricate doctrines like the Administration of Grace which denies the teachings of Christ and claim that they are not applicable to you ...[text shortened]... Christ will welcome into his kingdom. The others are doomed for destruction in the lake of fire.

I have gone over and over about refraining from sin, but it has nothing to do with losing salvation, and it keeps going over your head or ignored.
God has no clean vessels to work with! He has what he has. All have sinned and fall short.
In your estimation, NONE will be saved. The bible declares we WERE(past tense) saved.
It seems to me that you have been indoctrinated with a false doctrine.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I have gone over and over about refraining from sin, but it has nothing to do with losing salvation, and it keeps going over your head or ignored.
God has no clean vessels to work with! He has what he has. All have sinned and fall short.
In your estimation, NONE will be saved. The bible declares we WERE(past tense) saved.
It seems to me that you have been indoctrinated with a false doctrine.

Nothing from the teachings of Jesus himself can ever be a false doctrine. Your claim that Christ teachings are false is what will condemn you when you face Him and you will one day.

Yes and BS doctrines fly way over my head because I know the teachings of Jesus but you dont. You and your type have found ways to deny Christ. You have plainly claimed that the Administration of Grace has superceeded the teachings of Christ which now no longer apply .. so you are not of Christ by your own definition.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I have gone over and over about refraining from sin, but it has nothing to do with losing salvation, and it keeps going over your head or ignored.
God has no clean vessels to work with! He has what he has. All have sinned and fall short.
In your estimation, NONE will be saved. The bible declares we WERE(past tense) saved.
It seems to me that you have been indoctrinated with a false doctrine.

Its like a teacher that says the following:

Now class I have a gift for everyone and its FREE for all who say that they like geography, [some of the class runs out shouting ... "Wow I like geography, gimme the free gift", and the rest sit quietly to hear the whole story] and answer the some questions correctly.

Those who listen to the whole story and understands and follows will get the gift.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Nothing from the teachings of Jesus himself can ever be a false doctrine. Your claim that Christ teachings are false is what will condemn you when you face Him and you will one day.

Yes and BS doctrines fly way over my head because I know the teachings of Jesus but you dont. You and your type have found ways to deny Christ. You have plainly claimed that t ...[text shortened]... eachings of Christ which now no longer apply .. so you are not of Christ by your own definition.

Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is given to those that love and belong to Him?
If you say yes, my next question is would that mean that the Holy Spirit would teach of the
same truth as Jesus?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you believe that God's Holy Spirit is given to those that love and belong to Him?
If you say yes, my next question is would that mean that the Holy Spirit would teach of the
same truth as Jesus?

God decides who gets Holy Spirit gifts. The Bible is not clear on who gets it and why. I am sure of the following though:
- not all those who claim to Believe or have faith gets Holy Spirit gifts.
- not all who claim to have these gifts actually do have it, as I have seen many liars and shysters claiming to have them
- not all who actually do have these HS gifts will get into the Kingdom of God.as stated here:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

In any event I dont care to discuss WHO gets eternal life as I dont have a clue WHO gets it... neither do I care about the WHY ...

I only discuss the HOW .. HOW to get eternal life .. and my focus is on the teachings of Jesus on the HOW to get it as He and He only is the authority on HOW.

Originally posted by Rajk999
God decides who gets Holy Spirit gifts. The Bible is not clear on who gets it and why. I am sure of the following though:
- not all those who claim to Believe or have faith gets Holy Spirit gifts.
- not all who claim to have these gifts actually do have it, as I have seen many liars and shysters claiming to have them
- not all who actually do have these H ...[text shortened]... cus is on the teachings of Jesus on the HOW to get it as He and He only is the authority on HOW.

Yes God decides who gets the Spiritual gifts. Wouldn't the Holy Spirit be no different than
Jesus in terms of truth? So if the Holy Spirit teaches us something wouldn't that lesson
always agree with Jesus?

The difference between Jesus and say Paul are who they are, Jesus the Word of God
made flesh, and Paul a sinner saved by God's grace, a man who received the Spirit of
God. If God is speaking through Paul by God's Spirit wouldn't the truth be the same but
the only difference be from perspective of the speaker God is using? God speaking
through the Holy Spirit through a saved sinner would be from the perspective of the
sinner, this would not change the truth only that God used a sinner to get His point across.

If God can use an ass to rebuke someone, I'm quite sure He could use a sinner.

You must love that verse about those who fall away from God since that seems to be the
one you always bring up to accuse. Simply knowing that some fall away does not at all
mean that God does not have some who are not falling away and are doing what He
wants. Since there are those that do in deed fall away it should show you that they once
were where they were supposed to be. That place where they were supposed to be is
where we all are supposed to be.