Jesus’ body

@pettytalk said
I don't know if all this hopping around a specific subject does it justice.

Try not to worry about it, it’s just a discussion.

@mchill said
Yes, as I recall you've played this card a few times in the past when responding to my posts. Your sarcasm aside, the fact remains there are some things in the bible that simply cannot be explained logically.

I recall you've played this card a few times in the past when responding to my posts.

I have never said it before in all my 18.5 years before. I thought of it yesterday.

@mchill said
Well, well. This is such a Swiss army knife-type debating point.


Yes, as I recall you've played this card a few times in the past when responding to my posts. Your sarcasm aside, the fact remains there are some things in the bible that simply cannot be explained logically.

the fact remains there are some things in the bible that simply cannot be explained logically.

Why would a supposedly divine system for the imposition of obedience, reward, and punishment onto human life need to be "far above our ability to comprehend"? For whose benefit is such supposed incomprehensibility?

It sounds like something dredged up from the human imagination rather than 'divine wisdom'.

@fmf said
the fact remains there are some things in the bible that simply cannot be explained logically.

Why would a supposedly divine system for the imposition of obedience, reward, and punishment onto human life need to be "far above our ability to comprehend"? For whose benefit is such supposed incomprehensibility?

It sounds like something dredged up from the human imagination rather than 'divine wisdom'.

One would think that an Omniscient God, Who knows human frailties better than humans themselves do, could have, and would have, devised a revelation formulated as His Final Word so clearly, simply, and self-consistently, that no one, however dense, could fail to be persuaded of it.

‘Oh, but God isn’t like that. He’s Incomprehensible. And He isn’t ’in your face’, He wants us to CHOOSE.’ So incarnating as a human and hurling miracles at people wasn’t ’in your face’?! There is indeed quite a lot about this that is incomprehensible; such as, how the people who believe it can get themselves past the mendacity and the illogical bits.

Personally, I think Tertullian was one of the few who was really honest about his faith when he declared that he believed BECAUSE it was impossible, not despite its being impossible.

@mchill said

Yes, as I recall you've played this card a few times in the past when responding to my posts.

You feel that FMF “plays the victim card” with you?

Really? I don’t think you’re being truthful here mchill.

@divegeester said
I don’t have a “version of the trinity” and therefore have never mentioned it before, and so I can’t “tell you again”.

Of course you do. I've heard you tell it before. Why don't you "spit it out" here so we can all SEE if it is just a milquetoast Trinity or not?

Go ahead, we're waiting.

@divegeester said
I’m not trying to do that.

Anything to add on OP rather than try to grandstand over me?

Go ahead and give us YOUR version of the Trinity (oops, I meant Godhead ) again.

Any time.

@suzianne said
Of course you do. I've heard you tell it before. Why don't you "spit it out" here so we can all SEE if it is just a milquetoast Trinity or not?

I don’t have a version of the trinity Suzianne. I don’t belive in a “trinity” and therefore do not have any versions of it to report on.

And irrespective of that, if you’ve “heard it before “ then why do you feel this need for me to tell you again?

Why do you believe what you believe?
20th time of asking you 🙂

@suzianne said
(oops, I meant Godhead ) again.

Ah ok, my version of the “godhead”… ok

I believe in the oneness of God. One spirit, one God, manifested in several ways.

You ok now?

Guys, this is very important...

You need to be a Trinitarian Christian to be a Christian. OK? Because, if you aren't, it might look like normal Christianity in terms of most things, but it creates giant fissures that make the Bible now contradictory and completely fallible, and whenever you want, you can declare it to be "unclear," and once it becomes "unclear" in one thing, you can decalre it "unclear!" in many things...

And that means you are no longer worshiping God. You are worshiping yourself.

Because the God you worship is now whatever you want Him to be as you subconsciously interpret the Bible in ways you find agreeable.

Check out this compilation of Bible quotes and think to yourself as you read them...

"Can the Bible still make sense if I deny the Trinity?"

And if your denial of the Trinity just means denial of the divinity of Christ... Ask yourself, why is it that the only way to the Father is through the Son? If Christ is not divine, and a prophet just like the others, how can you begin to explain John 1?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

...

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

... And how do you explain this as God as a NON-ETERNAL being if the Word was with God in the beginning?... The same Word who Was God..?

The Trinity is the only thing we can conclude.

God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - there are three Divine Persons, and they share ONE essence, and are Undivided.

And Jesus Christ has Two Natures (sometime said Two Essences), one that is Fully Human, which is unique to Christ while He was a man in the flesh on earth, and one that is Fully Divine, the essence that is shared with God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Here's the thing:

- Protestants
- Catholics
- Orthodox

We all agree on this in spite of our very large and significantly different other doctrines, and we have always said that those who disbelieve this are in a special category apart from us and their disbelief is a serious threat to the edifice of the Church. Not necessarily because there is somethign so wicekd about misunderstanding the Trinity in itself, but because something wicked actually comes from the misunderstanding of the Trinity: the undermining of the whole Christian doctrine by rendering the Bible incomprehensible and confused.

@philokalia said
Guys, this is very important...

You need to be a Trinitarian Christian to be a Christian. OK? Because, if you aren't, it might look like normal Christianity in terms of most things, but it creates giant fissures that make the Bible now contradictory and completely fallible, and whenever you want, you can declare it to be "unclear," and once it becomes "unclear" ...[text shortened]... he undermining of the whole Christian doctrine by rendering the Bible incomprehensible and confused.

The bible is very explicit all the way through “God is one”.

No mention of “trinity” so it can’t be an important precept, let alone a critical doctrine.

No mention of “eternal son”, Jesus body was born and it died.

No mention of multiple separate spirits in the godhead.

“Hear oh Israel, the Lord your god is one” IS mentioned, maybe a 100 times or more

A working example…
Jesus said “be baptised in the name (singular) of the father and of the son and of the holy spirt”.

THE name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirt is “Jesus”

Proof???
Every single recorded instance of baptism in the NT was done “in the name of Jesus”

Edit or did the apostles get that wrong??

@divegeester said
The bible is very explicit all the way through “God is one”.

No mention of “trinity” so it can’t be an important precept, let alone a critical doctrine.

No mention of “eternal son”, Jesus body was born and it died.

No mention of multiple separate spirits in the godhead.

“Hear oh Israel, the Lord your god is one” IS mentioned, maybe a 100 times or more

...[text shortened]... ce of baptism in the NT was done “in the name of Jesus”

Edit or did the apostles get that wrong??

God is a single entity with three divine persons in Him that share a single Godly essence, and Christ has this essence plus His fully human essence.

What do you think of John 1 ?

Who is the Word?

And yes, God is ONE, but with three distinct persons with one essence.

@philokalia said
God is a single entity with three divine persons in Him that share a single Godly essence, and Christ has this essence plus His fully human essence.

I’m aware of what you believe.

@philokalia said
Guys, this is very important...

You need to be a Trinitarian Christian to be a Christian. OK? Because, if you aren't, it might look like normal Christianity in terms of most things, but it creates giant fissures that make the Bible now contradictory and completely fallible, and whenever you want, you can declare it to be "unclear," and once it becomes "unclear" ...[text shortened]... he undermining of the whole Christian doctrine by rendering the Bible incomprehensible and confused.

As for those giant fissures that make the Bible now contradictory and completely fallible...

Hence, hundreds of years after the Gospels were written, the theology of the Trinity had to be concocted.

@philokalia said
What do you think of John 1 ?
Who is the Word?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The word became flesh

Firstly in the beginning was the word, I believe refers to the beginning of time, the beginning of the universe. The word was the first thing made, a way of god interacting with the universe because god existed outside of the universe. An extension of himself.

Once established as an extension of himself the word needed a way to interact with humans as so became flesh. But it’s all still the same one god. Not distinct people/identities.