Spirituality
19 Oct 16
19 Oct 16
Originally posted by KellyJayAgain, you seem to be saying that what you believe to be true is true because you believe it to be true and you are then hiding behind this to avoid talking about the sheer moral incoherence of the ideology you personally propagate.
I mean no disrespect to you, but if I were to discuss the Book of Mormon nothing in it would I consider true. I would think the same if I were discussing the Lord of the Rings.
Now if you wanted to discuss this as a bestselling book and are treating it as a character in a book of fiction, then to you isn't it all fiction?
Originally posted by KellyJayBut haven't you started a new thread with this specifically because you had rings being run around you on the other thread where you couldn't 'prove' what you were claiming on this exact same topic? Do you really think you can dismiss all the detailed Biblical arguments Rajk999 has put to you, and which you simply have no answer to or find inconvenient, as him having "nothing to say"?
Name calling again, notice you are not disproving anything. You have nothing to say outside personal attacks.
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19 Oct 16
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat do you think about the scripture that says Jesus will be watching the hellish spectacle?
The thing I think people fail to take into account is God doesn't add punishment/wrath to His grace, so why do they think His punishment/wrath will be with mercy mixed in?
19 Oct 16
Originally posted by FMFYep .. he is trying to run from what I told him by starting another thread. Even in this thread the opening post is showing that KJ has more than a few screws missing.
But haven't you started a new thread with this specifically because you had rings being run around you on the other thread where you couldn't 'prove' what you were claiming on this exact same topic? Do you really think you can dismiss all the detailed Biblical arguments Rajk999 has put to you, and which you simply have no answer to or find inconvenient, as him having "nothing to say"?
He quotes passages whiich say clearly
1. 3 beings are tormented
2. others are cast into the lake of fire
Then he foolishly asks :
Why is it that some think some will be tormented day and night forever
and ever and others will not be if they are thrown into the lake of fire?
WHY ???!! BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO KJ !
The man is a lost cause.
I notice he is also ignoring good points made by Rank outsider.
20 Oct 16
Originally posted by Rajk999"- The beast, false prophet and the devil are tormented eternally.
Yep .. he is trying to run from what I told him by starting another thread. Even in this thread the opening post is showing that KJ has more than a few screws missing.
He quotes passages whiich say clearly
1. 3 beings are tormented
2. others are cast into the lake of fire
Then he foolishly asks :
[i]Why is it that some think some will be torm ...[text shortened]... !
The man is a lost cause.
I notice he is also ignoring good points made by Rank outsider.
- Those who worship the beast are also tormented eternally. "
You admitted some people will be tormented eternally, what changed your mind?
20 Oct 16
1 edit
Originally posted by Rank outsiderRev 14:9-10
Put a firebrick into the flames an open fire. Take it out after a few minutes. You will note that the brick is not damaged in the slightest.
Now stick your head in.
Shows that people will be going through this.
I wrote this earlier to you but didn't realize I left your name off, sorry my mistake and my
bad. This has people going through eternal torment it is clear if you read it.
Revelation 14 NIV
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
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20 Oct 16
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat do you think about the scripture that says Jesus will be watching the hellish spectacle?
"- The beast, false prophet and the devil are tormented eternally.
- Those who worship the beast are also tormented eternally. "
You admitted some people will be tormented eternally, what changed your mind?
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20 Oct 16
Originally posted by KellyJaySorry Kelly, no disrespect taken. Was the lack of sleep talking.
I mean no disrespect to you, but if I were to discuss the Book of Mormon nothing in it would I consider true. I would think the same if I were discussing the Lord of the Rings.
Now if you wanted to discuss this as a bestselling book and are treating it as a character in a book of fiction, then to you isn't it all fiction?
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Originally posted by divegeester
What do you think about the scripture that says Jesus will be watching the hellish spectacle?
The fact that verse 10 says this tormenting takes place "before the holy angels and before the Lamb" seems to mean that they have opposed God, Christ, and the holy angels. And their defeat is absolute, total and consummate,
In subtlety and in mischief they have schemed and opposed Christ to the uttermost. In the presence of Christ they will be punished. Christ knew what was up with them. Nothing was concealed to His eyes. And before His eyes He will see their defeat and punishment.
I would advice them this prayer (though they probably would kill me for suggesting)
" Lord Jesus, I now admit that I oppose You. Lord Jesus, I confess that I hate the will of Your Father. Lord Jesus, help me because I am a DECEIVED man following Your enemy Satan. Merciful Lord Jesus, I no longer wish to be so deceived. May the truth make me free, Lord.
Lord Jesus, rid every bit of rebellion, suspicion, hatred, opposition, and revolt from my heart to cause me to see truth. Lord Jesus I confess You are the truth and I no longer wish to be deceived by the enemy Satan or the Antichrist or his false prophet.
Thankyou Lord Jesus, I receive this mercy and thank You now. Thankyou for Your faithfulness to Your word - You desire all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. Amen. "
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Divegeester,
Now as for me a Christian who believes the word of God - I do not like this passage of Revelation 14:10. i don't think it is humanly possible to be fond of such a verse. I may be wrong.
Anyway, I don't like it. And maybe when it says "the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed UNDILUTED in the cup of His wrath" it implies that THESE ones bear the full degree of God's anger. Maybe there is the implication that the wine of God's fury in other cases is DILUTED with some degree of restraint on God's total anger.
But this I do not know for sure. This may be none of my business and just my speculation. But there is no argument that THESE ones here specifically are said their portion is God's undiluted fury.
My own prayer -
"Lord Jesus, I worship You for Your holy word. If I have added to or diluted in any way Your holy word, Lord reveal that to me. If I change Your word grant to me repentance and obedience.
Since this word from You is so horrific to repeat and teach, have mercy that Your servants would be faithful, for indeed Lord "true and righteous are Your judgments"
Thankyou Lord for the total defeat of Satan, the Antichrist and his false prophet and the followers of the Antichrist for their crimes against God and man. Thankyou Lord for their total destruction and everlasting torment according to Your holy word." Amen.
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Originally posted by sonshipNo it doesn't seem to mean that at all - here is is what the scripture says and it talks specifically about the torment occurring in the presence of Jesus; and is not as you intimate some semantic gymnastics to make it about opposition and defeat. perhaps you are not literal about this after all - is that it?
The fact that verse 10 says this tormenting takes place "before the holy angels and before the Lamb" seems to mean that they have opposed God, Christ, and the holy angels. And their defeat is absolute, total and consummate...
Revelation 14: 9-11
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
So as a believer all this is literal, how do you feel about your version of the loving Jesus choosing to watch all this torture?
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20 Oct 16
Originally posted by divegeesterDivegeester, I don't see any difference in what you quoted.
No it doesn't seem to mean that at all - here is is what the scripture says and it talks specifically about the torment occurring in the presence of Jesus; and is not as you intimate some semantic gymnastics to make it about opposition and defeat. perhaps you are not literal about this after all - is that it?
Revelation 14: 9-11
“If anyone worships ...[text shortened]... eral, how do you feel about your version of the loving Jesus choosing to watch all this torture?
I think human love of fallen man is a love which relaxes righteousness.
I think our fallen love is a love that does not include hatred for evil as much.
I think the divine love necessarily has another side - the hatred for evil.
And I could be wrong about the significance of "undiluted". However, it seems evident throughout the entire Bible that there were degrees to God's severity in punishment.
Do you disagree with this ?
If NOT, then the case for the "UNDILUTED" fury is perhaps an arguable case.
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20 Oct 16
Originally posted by sonshipWell of course not, I posted the same scripture you posted 😕
Divegeester, I don't see any difference in what you quoted.
Perhaps you are just evading my point that you are claiming it means something that it blatantly doesn't in an attempt to steer away from your awful literal interpretations of these scriptures.