09 Aug 10
Originally posted by nook7OK..Lets get this cleared up. No Witness is a stupid non questioning robot. We have all chose to be where we are because the world and religions offer nothing. No hope for the future. Just look at all the dooms day movies that are out now and you'll see what's on everyone mind. NO HOPE.
Thankyou for your excellent posts LemonJello.
l find it disturbing that a human being is born with the faculties for independant logical thought and yet actively chooses to ignore these options and settle for the intellectual wasteland of organised religion like the JWs that instructs its members to avoid any thought that questions the organisation in any w ...[text shortened]... ning their beliefs. If they do this then they will be stronger for it regardless of the outcome.
The Bible is very clear to ones that are "looking for a hope" and it's there in black and white for those who WANT to see it.
And many others are fed up with the falseness of money hungry and sick churches that prey on their flocks, both the adults and their children.
And others were never satisfied with the many, many false teachings and paganistic doctrines that are shoved down their throats and taught not to ask.
The WTS gets letters daily from JW's and ones who aren't daily about questions they have reguarding all aspects of the organization. Many or printed in the Watchtowr magazines for all to read. And anyone here can do the same. We have nothing to hide.
So to keep making these dumb comments that we are a bunch of brainwashed fools is so foolish it beyond any kind of reasonableness or belief!!!!!
09 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Foolishness no, based on one close friend who were fortunate enough to realise the error of their ways and another who was not.
OK..Lets get this cleared up. No Witness is a stupid non questioning robot. We have all chose to be where we are because the world and religions offer nothing. No hope for the future. Just look at all the dooms day movies that are out now and you'll see what's on everyone mind. NO HOPE.
The Bible is very clear to ones that are "looking for a hope" and ...[text shortened]... ch of brainwashed fools is so foolish it beyond any kind of reasonableness or belief!!!!!
Your own orgasnisation actively dissuades members from fraternising with non JW's in case they plant any seeds of doubt.
It is never too late to break the chains.
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by nook7I have friends and many relatives who are not JW's and have much love and support from them. Sorry the ones you know didn't.
Foolishness no, based on one close friend who were fortunate enough to realise the error of their ways and another who was not.
Your own orgasnisation actively dissuades members from fraternising with non JW's in case they plant any seeds of doubt.
It is never too late to break the chains.
But read what Jesus said at Mark 13:12 & Matt 10:35 and you will see that if ones family turns on them, it is what Jesus fortold would happen.
And again about your friend, it is a sad thing but not all like what the JW's have to offer and that's fine. Jesus used the illustration of the seeds that were along the roadway. Some would sprout and grow but then soon wether away. Those things happen.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Please quote the scripture you are referring to.
Please look back at the scriptures that were Jesus's own words about keeping the congregations clean of ones that """"still practice""" wrong doings and to ""remove"" them from the congregations..
It still seems to be the point that everyone keeps missing here.
If one repents and gains forgiveness for a sin they commit, does that make sense that it' ...[text shortened]... gross sins or crimes to possibly rehabilitate them and to protect their subjects?
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe LDS stance is this:
Sounds like your treatment of homosexuals is in line with the teachings of Jesus.
Can you clarify your beliefs on the following?:Surely you are aware that there are Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin. And that there are Christians who support ostracizing homosexuals from their church (especially if they are not celibate).
's the latter, then I have to give you your props, since so few seem to be willing to do so.
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).
Quoted from www.lds.org
It was best if I just quote the response by Gordon B. Hinckley on this topic which I agree with.
This is where galveston and I do not see eye to eye I believe. I believe we should still welcome a homosexual into our Church just as any other person. It is not our position to turn anyone away.
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by galveston75I have seen nothing that says we should turn away someone who is homosexual. If you expect me to spend my night reading every page and every post you posted to find it, you're wrong. Just quote me a scripture please.
There all in my first posting here on this thread..Thanks.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeNot ours either as long as that person has stopped that practice. If you let them continue then the congregation would be going against God's word.
The LDS stance is this:
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If ...[text shortened]... mosexual into our Church just as any other person. It is not our position to turn anyone away.
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Well - I'm not going to ask again...I just have better things to occupy my time with. Would you please list the scripture that says we can turn away a homosexual if they continue in their acts? No offense, but I'm not going to go through every page here my friend.
Not ours either as long as that person has stopped that practice. If you let them continue then the congregation would be going against God's word.
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeActually I was asking for your beliefs:
The LDS stance is this:
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If mosexual into our Church just as any other person. It is not our position to turn anyone away.
Can you clarify your beliefs on the following?:[/quote]
[quote]Surely you are aware that there are Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin. And that there are Christians who support ostracizing homosexuals from their church (especially if they are not celibate).
Reading between the lines of Hinckley's carefully worded statement, it seems that the LDS position IS in line with the above. However, so far as I know, neither belief is supported by the teachings of Jesus.
Evidently the LDS was a major supporter for Prop 8 which banned homosexual marriage which seems to indicate a position that homosexuality is a sin:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/may-22-2009/mormons-and-proposition-8/3019/
Here's an excerpt from a site that generally even handed:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_lds1.htm
The LDS church is currently very strongly opposed to equal rights for gays and lesbians. They maintain that their position has remained unchanged through their history.
They teach that a member cannot be excommunicated simply because they have a homosexual orientation, as long as they remain celibate.
Daniel Peterson, a professor at Brigham Young university and the author of many books and articles on church doctrine said in an interview:
"To be a practicing homosexual is something that will bring you into contact with the church court. To be a homosexual as such, to be of that inclination, there's nothing excommunicable about that and there are lots of them in the church. It must be a terribly difficult road to walk." 8
The church expects the same behavior among heterosexuals, bisexuals, gays and lesbians. Daniel Peterson said:
"... the standard for a homosexual is the same as the standard for a heterosexual. No sexual relations except within marriage. And if you violate that, that is one of the most serious things the church will look at. In that sense, there's no discrimination; there's a single standard that if a heterosexual male violates his marriage covenants, he's likely to be disciplined, whether it's with a man or a woman."
So it would seem that the actual stance is that homosexuality is a sin and that active homosexuals could face excommunication. The stance against same-sex marriage indicates that the LDS only welcomes celibate homosexuals.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeNo problem as this will help:
Well - I'm not going to ask again...I just have better things to occupy my time with. Would you please list the scripture that says we can turn away a homosexual if they continue in their acts? No offense, but I'm not going to go through every page here my friend.
Some clergymen argue in favor of homosexuality, claiming that Jesus never spoke against it. But is that really so? Jesus Christ declared that God’s Word is truth. (John 17:17) That means that he endorsed God’s view of homosexuality as described at Leviticus 18:22, which reads: “You must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.” Moreover, Jesus listed fornication and adultery among the “wicked things [that] issue forth from within and defile a man.” (Mark 7:21-23) The Greek word for fornication is a broader term than that for adultery. It describes all forms of sexual relations outside lawful marriage, including homosexuality. (Jude 7) Jesus Christ also warned his followers not to tolerate any professed Christian teacher who minimizes the seriousness of fornication.—Revelation 1:1; 2:14, 20.
When religious leaders campaign for the ordination of homosexuals and Lesbians, what effect does this have on members of their churches, especially the young people? Is it not an inducement to experiment with sex outside marriage? In contrast, God’s Word urges Christians to “flee from fornication.” (1 Corinthians 6:18) If a fellow believer falls into such sin, loving help is given with a view to restoring the person to God’s favor. (James 5:16, 19, 20) What if this help is rejected? The Bible states that unless such ones repent, they ‘will not inherit God’s kingdom.’—1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by galveston75Earlier you made the following assertion:
Not ours either as long as that person has stopped that practice. If you let them continue then the congregation would be going against God's word.
Please look back at the scriptures that were Jesus's own words about keeping the congregations clean of ones that """"still practice""" wrong doings and to ""remove"" them from the congregations..
Both GTB4life and I looked back at your OP as you suggested and neither of us found anything that supports your assertion.
Either back it up or withdraw your assertion.
10 Aug 10
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Originally posted by galveston75John 17:17 – does not state we should turn away a sinner.
No problem as this will help:
Some clergymen argue in favor of homosexuality, claiming that Jesus never spoke against it. But is that really so? Jesus Christ declared that God’s Word is truth. (John 17:17) That means that he endorsed God’s view of homosexuality as described at Leviticus 18:22, which reads: “You must not lie down with a male the same ...[text shortened]... ates that unless such ones repent, they ‘will not inherit God’s kingdom.’—1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.
Leviticus 18:22 - does not state we should turn away a sinner.
Mark 7:21-23 - does not state we should turn away a sinner.
Revelation 1:1; 2:14, 20 - does not state we should turn away a sinner
Corinthians 6:18 – “Flee from sin” – not from the person committing the sin. It does not state we should turn away someone who sins.
James 5:16, 19, 20 - does not state we should turn away a sinner
1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 - does not state we should turn away a sinner
I see nothing in the scriptures, which state we should turn a sinner away. I only see your words which state that.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by gtbiking4lifeWhat's more, it doesn't even support the idea that Jesus considered homosexuality a sin. While Jesus declared that "God's word is Truth", there is nothing to support the idea that Jesus considered the OT (no less Leviticus 18:22) as God's word.
John 17:17 – does not state we should turn away a sinner.
Leviticus 18:22 - does not state we should turn away a sinner.
Mark 7:21-23 - does not state we should turn away a sinner.
Revelation 1:1; 2:14, 20 - does not state we should turn away a sinner
Corinthians 6:18 – “Flee from sin” – not from the person committing the sin. It does not state we ...[text shortened]... he scriptures, which state we should turn a sinner away. I only see your words which state that.
10 Aug 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI get a different picture if I try and read between the lines of the quote. A homosexual person has to live by the same standards I do. There are homosexuals who attend Church and have been baptized in the LDS Church as well. None are being ex-communicated as far as I'm aware. I know one who is a member currently and is treated just like anyone else. My stance is pretty much this - I believe the act of homosexuality is a sin, just like I believe sex before marriage is a sin. but hating the sin and hating the sinner are two different things.
Actually I was asking for your beliefs:Can you clarify your beliefs on the following?:[/quote]
[quote]Surely you are aware that there are Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin. And that there are Christians who support ostracizing homosexuals from their church (especially if they are not celibate).
Reading between the lines of ...[text shortened]... against same-sex marriage indicates that the LDS only welcomes celibate homosexuals.
There is one truth though - I would always welcome a homosexual into out Church anytime. I believe I would be doing exactly what God would want. I certainly don't believe the Bible tells us to turn anyone away.