17 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75So its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel = 144,000 that will be saved initially to do a specific job for a specific time?
The Bible is very clear on this simple question. Why is it so hard? How many are in the Little Flock? That is one question of this thread, Right?
This is a very important thing to know especially for those of you who think your saved and going to heaven. There is a specific number that the Bible says will be going and to do a specific job and for only ...[text shortened]... f so Jesus would not have made a differance between them and just called them one or the other.
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75============================
The Bible is very clear on this simple question. Why is it so hard? How many are in the Little Flock? That is one question of this thread, Right?
This is a very important thing to know especially for those of you who think your saved and going to heaven. There is a specific number that the Bible says will be going and to do a specific job and for only f so Jesus would not have made a differance between them and just called them one or the other.
The Bible is very clear on this simple question. Why is it so hard? How many are in the Little Flock? That is one question of this thread, Right?
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Well, Yes and No.
It depends kind of what you mean.
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This is a very important thing to know especially for those of you who think your saved and going to heaven.
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Ahhh. Your true colors are beginning to show. These are skeptical questions meant to trip up the Bible thumper, Right ?
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There is a specific number that the Bible says will be going and to do a specific job and for only a certian period of time.
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So ? You asked about the kingdom. You did not ask about heaven.
Are you a Jehovah's Witness ?
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If you think your going wouldn't you want to know if there is a place for you ( many millions on this earth think their saved now and going there sometime in the future ) and know what your respondsabilities will be?
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Did I say I thought I was going to heaven? I might want to visit but I can't see God wanting Christians to be there forever.
I think you have to decide if you want to question about "the kingdom" or about "Heaven".
You are assuming the terms synonomous. Some Bible readers assume this. You are now talking with someone who does not.
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And no..the Great Crowd and the Little Flock are not the same. If so Jesus would not have made a differance between them and just called them one or the other.
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I don't think that you should regard Jesus speaking to that "little flock" any more than as a small audience standing before him at the time.
It does not mean that the flock cannot grow. And it does not mean that there are not other sheep which Jesus will bring from other folds to be "one flock" and a larger one at that, per John chapter 10.
I think you are headed in the direction of trying to use "little flock" to prove that only a few go to heaven.
And this leads me to beleive you are either influenced by or are yourself a student of Watchtower theology.
Am I reading you right? I do not mind your questions though. You know I love to talk about the Bible and salvation.
Remarks further ?
17 Jun 09
1 edit
You see galvaston, even if you say that the "little flock" is 144,000 people you still have yourself arbitrarily put a scope on the general word "little".
"Little Flock" is not a proper name but a general description. How "little" is "little" ?
Twelve disciples or 70 disciples is "little" compared to 100,000 disciples. But 100,000 disciples could be "little" compared to 144,000 disciples.
Don't make too much of "little flock". The disciples at that time were greatly outnumbered by the crowd of generally skeptical people. Some more enlarged their number to about 120 by the time of the end of His earthly ministry.
Then it grew to thousands. And it has grown since then.
One thing I would agree with you about. That is the number of those seen in heaven in chapter 14 (144,000) does suggest a REMNANT and a MINORITY of all those saved.
But we have to be careful in jumping to conclusions from that.
Do you follow me ?
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75=========================
Go to John 10:16 to first see that Jesus did describe that he had two different groups of followers.
The Little Flock according to Luke 12:32 get's the Kingdom as their reward.
So what would the Great Crowd get? Matt 5:5 gives the hint.
Go to John 10:16 to first see that Jesus did describe that he had two different groups of followers.
The Little Flock according to Luke 12:32 get's the Kingdom as their reward.
So what would the Great Crowd get? Matt 5:5 gives the hint.
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He has only "one flock"
He had other sheep who were not of this fold. The fold is a temporary holding place. The flock is not the same thing as the fold.
The fact that many different folds can contribute to His one flock means of course that the flock can grow in size.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by jaywillSounds like your playing with the words the Bible says to fit your opinion. Jesus said the Great Crowd could not be numbered so that would emply that the Little Flock could be.
You see galvaston, even if you say that the "little flock" is 144,000 people you still have yourself arbitrarily put a scope on the general word "little".
"Little Flock" is not a proper name but a general description. How "little" is "little" ?
Twelve disciples or 70 disciples is "little" compared to 100,000 disciples. But 100,000 disciples could b ...[text shortened]... ave to be careful in jumping to conclusions from that.
Do you follow me ?
Revelation does give that number of 144,000. Matt 22:14 says that many are invited but few will be chosen. That number has to mean something or why mention it? You can't decide it means nothing. Is not 144,000 little compared to millions or more?
Going to heaven to serve as a Priest and Judge is a very special privilige that very few will qualify for. The earth was made for mankind and it's where most of us will stay if found worthy of it. What would be the purpose of leaving it, going to heaven and then coming back?
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75Earlier you said "..It would be very important to know which we would fall into."
Sounds like your playing with the words the Bible says to fit your opinion. Jesus said the Great Crowd could not be numbered so that would emply that the Little Flock could be.
Revelation does give that number of 144,000. Matt 22:14 says that many are invited but few will be chosen. That number has to mean something or why mention it? You can't decide ...[text shortened]... d worthy of it. What would be the purpose of leaving it, going to heaven and then coming back?
I still disagree. In fact is it even possible to know that? You are implying that someone should know whether they are in the group of 144,000? Can you explain why and how they will know this ?
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75===========================
Sounds like your playing with the words the Bible says to fit your opinion. Jesus said the Great Crowd could not be numbered so that would emply that the Little Flock could be.
Revelation does give that number of 144,000. Matt 22:14 says that many are invited but few will be chosen. That number has to mean something or why mention it? You can't decide d worthy of it. What would be the purpose of leaving it, going to heaven and then coming back?
Sounds like your playing with the words the Bible says to fit your opinion.
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I don't think so.
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Jesus said the Great Crowd could not be numbered so that would emply that the Little Flock could be.
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1.) Can a little flock grow in size ?
2.) What proof do you have that the "little flock" of Luke 12:32 consisted of only those standing near Him at that moment?
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Revelation does give that number of 144,000. Matt 22:14 says that many are invited but few will be chosen. That number has to mean something or why mention it? You can't decide it means nothing. Is not 144,000 little compared to millions or more?
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Which group of 144,000 are you refering to Rev. 7 or Rev. 14?
Or do you regard them as the same group?
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Going to heaven to serve as a Priest and Judge is a very special privilige that very few will qualify for.
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I think that you should first look carefully at what Revelation 7 and/or 14 says about that group/s first.
I think you should base you statements about them firstly considering what we are told about them.
In assuming things we are not told about them, we should be cautious.
Before I begin to speculate I first try to master the facts about what I am told. What I am told requires less speculation.
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The earth was made for mankind and it's where most of us will stay if found worthy of it. What would be the purpose of leaving it, going to heaven and then coming back?
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It is a strategic move as in warfare.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999According to Rom 8:14 - 17 you will know if you are a heir of being part of the heavenly Kingdom..
Earlier you said "..It would be very important to know which we would fall into."
I still disagree. In fact is it even possible to know that? You are implying that someone should know whether they are in the group of 144,000? Can you explain why and how they will know this ?
17 Jun 09
Could not be numbered means could not be numbered by man.
God of course can number the stars and the hairs on our head could all have a number.
The Bible says both are numbered by God.
There may be a more direct way for you to put what you are trying to get across. Do you want to say -
"You're not going to heaven. Only a few are."
Is that your point ?
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75============================
According to Rom 8:14 - 17 you will know if you are a heir of being part of the heavenly Kingdom..
According to Rom 8:14 - 17 you will know if you are a heir of being part of the heavenly Kingdom..
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Where is "heavenly kingdom" mentioned in Romans 8?
What do you mean by "heavenly kingdom"?
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75SO lets see. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes Israel (144,000) will know that they are an heir to the heavenly kingdom.
According to Rom 8:14 - 17 you will know if you are a heir of being part of the heavenly Kingdom..
Ok so whats next. I dont belong to any tribe of Israel. Are you ?
Is this point also relevant here " ..he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.." ? So Revelation does not refer to actual Jews decended from Jacob. And is there a specific religious group of people that make up this 144,000 ?
17 Jun 09
God's Kingdom is an Organization. A Theocratic one that Jehovah God will allow his son, Jesus, to be the head of for 1000 years. While Jesus was on earth he explained that this Kingdom will be ruled from heaven and will invite a small or little flock of ones that have lived up to some very specific qulifications that he laid out. They are all to help, judge and decide who will be given the opportunity to live forever on this earth that Jehovah will make into the paradise that the earth was meant to be for humans. The restoration of God's Kingdom is the theme of the whole Bible. One connot understands the Bible until that picture comes into view. You cannot do this on your own as Prov 3: 5,6 explains. You have to recognize he has an organization and be a part of it.
17 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999==========================
SO lets see. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes Israel (144,000) will know that they are an heir to the heavenly kingdom.
Ok so whats next. I dont belong to any tribe of Israel. Are you ?
Is this point also relevant here " ..he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.." ? So Revelation does not refer to actual Jews decended from Jacob. And is there a specific religious group of people that make up this 144,000 ?
SO lets see. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes Israel (144,000) will know that they are an heir to the heavenly kingdom.
Ok so whats next. I dont belong to any tribe of Israel. Are you ?
Is this point also relevant here " ..he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.." ? So Revelation does not refer to actual Jews decended from Jacob. And is there a specific religious group of people that make up this 144,000 ?
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In Revelation 7 there is a group of 144,000 Jews. Basically it only says that they are sealed by God and preserved.
In Revelation 14 another group of 144,000 are mentioned who have been raptured to heaven.
The same number is used. We do not know if this means it is the same people.
I do not think it refers to the same people. If anyone is interested I can give my reasons.
We do have a three-way going on here.
What we are not told:
1.) We are not told that only these will be in heaven.
2.) We are not told that only these will stay in heaven.
I think galvaston makes some assumptions. Perhaps galvaston has better reasons for them which s/he has not devulged yet.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by jaywillWhat do you mean," Maybe not the same". Of course they are and where would you like them to rule from?
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SO lets see. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes Israel (144,000) will know that they are an heir to the heavenly kingdom.
Ok so whats next. I dont belong to any tribe of Israel. Are you ?
Is this point also relevant here " ..he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.." ? So Revelation does not refer to actual Jews decended ...[text shortened]... me assumptions. Perhaps galvaston has better reasons for them which s/he has not devulged yet.
17 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75So God/Christ will select a group of 144K Jews to judge. And these people will know who they are?
God's Kingdom is an Organization. A Theocratic one that Jehovah God will allow his son, Jesus, to be the head of for 1000 years. While Jesus was on earth he explained that this Kingdom will be ruled from heaven and will invite a small or little flock of ones that have lived up to some very specific qulifications that he laid out. They are all to help, ju ...[text shortened]... own as Prov 3: 5,6 explains. You have to recognize he has an organization and be a part of it.
Whats the relevance of that to the rest of us?