Luke 7:50

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Psalms

Chapter 120

A song of ascents.
1 The LORD answered me when I called in my distress:
2 LORD, deliver me from lying lips, from treacherous tongues.
3 What will the Lord inflict on you, O treacherous tongue, and what more besides?
4 A warrior's sharpened arrows and fiery coals of brush wood!
5 Alas, I was an alien in Meshech, I lived ne ...[text shortened]... 6 Too long did I live among those who hated peace.
7 When I spoke of peace, they were for war.

OK, Ivanhoe, you keep quoting random Scripture if that pleases you. If someone wants to get back to the discussion of the salvation prospects of Group B and/or C, I'm here for a awhile, as I can't seem to drum up a decent game on my timed sites.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Could you leave the Old Testament mumbo jumbo about a "jealous God" who people must "fear" out of this thread? We're talking Jesus here.

So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

John 8:19



Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'

John 8-54

Originally posted by no1marauder
OK, Ivanhoe, you keep quoting random Scripture if that pleases you. If someone wants to get back to the discussion of the salvation prospects of Group B and/or C, I'm here for a awhile, as I can't seem to drum up a decent game on my timed sites.

Marauder: " you keep quoting random Scripture "

..... random ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

John 8:19



Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'

John 8-54

Now we're getting somewhere! What in your opinion is the message of John 8 as regards the issue of salvation for Group B and/or Group C? As he is addressing the Pharisees who claim to have faith in the God of Abraham but who he insists will die in their sins, it seems to me that Jesus is saying that Group B are goners. Do you read anything in the passage relevant to Group C?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Marauder: " you keep quoting random Scripture "

..... random ?

I'm really not interested in your childish games, Ivanhoe. Say what you mean.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're putting the cart before the horse. Point to something in the Gospels (not Paul) that says "faith is what saves people". You need to put something from Jesus' mouth up against Matthew 25:31-46 where he clearly says works are required and never mentions faith or grace. Can you do that?

Point to something in the Gospels (not Paul)

Why not Paul? Are the gospels the whole bible?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b] Point to something in the Gospels (not Paul)

Why not Paul? Are the gospels the whole bible?[/b]

As between the clearly expressed words of Jesus and the clearly expressed words of Paul, which is more authoritative to a "Christian"?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The KJV translation (which is late Mediaval English after all) uses "midst" where we would use "middle".

Here's another example:

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and [b]in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it de ...[text shortened]... en until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9: 27)[/b]

The midst of a week denotes more than two..since there are seven days.
You are in the midst of four or more people, while you are "between" two.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
[b/]Ok No 1, you want gospels?Here you go.......
Luke 8:12
12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
(NKJ)

John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His ...[text shortened]... ten Son, that [b]whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(NKJ)[/b]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. The first two passages are somewhat irrelevant as they merely state that believers MAY be saved, not that they MUST be saved. Group A believers are, of course, in anyway, but these passages do not conflict with Matthew 25 which clearly says what you do is what matters, not what you believe. If the belief leads one to the acts enumerated in Matthew 25 and other acts of mercy and kindness towards your fellow man, a believer MAY be saved, but not merely because he believes. So Group B is still out.

You've quoted VERY selectively from John 3. Let's put the whole chapter up and discuss it.

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;

15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Enon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

25 There arose therefore a questioning on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about purifying.

26 And they came unto John, and said to him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou hast borne witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness.

33 He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Now we're getting somewhere! What in your opinion is the message of John 8 as regards the issue of salvation for Group B and/or Group C? As he is addressing the Pharisees who claim to have faith in the God of Abraham but who he insists will die in their sins, it seems to me that Jesus is saying that Group B are goners. Do you read anything in the passage relevant to Group C?

In which group do you want to place yourself ?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The midst of a week denotes more than two..since there are seven days.
You are in the midst of four or more people, while you are "between" two.

Stop making a fool of yourself.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
In which group do you want to place yourself ?

It's an intellectual exercise; I place myself in no groups.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It's an intellectual exercise; I place myself in no groups.

There is no I in debate. It's a team sport. Get with the program.

Originally posted by no1marauder
As between the clearly expressed words of Jesus and the clearly expressed words of Paul, which is more authoritative to a "Christian"?

Here is where you are in error. My answer would be Jesus, of course! But the point is that what Paul spoke was by "revelation" from Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:11-12
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)


Ps 138:2
2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; for You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
(NKJ)

That means the whole bible, not just the gospels. All of the bible is God inspired.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(NKJ)