Spirituality
28 Jan 09
29 Jan 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat exactly does that verse have to do with drinking or not drinking wine?
yes, but their own book supersedes it, for example, i was talking with a couple of Mormon missionaries in Glasgow, the host offered us a drink, coffee, tea and and coke if you wanted a soft drink. they refused, when i quizzed them why as i gulped down my fresh out of the fridge coca-cola, they said that Joseph Smith had been given 'direction to do w ...[text shortened]... he actual content of the scriptures, in practice, although they hold it in esteem in word.
29 Jan 09
Originally posted by reinfeldI suggest this piece: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/bible/belief_eom.htm
the other three books of their canon is the pearl of great price, doctrine and covenants and the book of mormon. all other mormon writings and or speculations are held as valuable but they are not the official doctrine of the church. i do not know if all four are held in equal esteem except that i read that the bible and the book of mormon are considered ...[text shortened]... as lds understands ) it would probably have more value if one found a conflict in the two books.
The Mormons believe in the Bible. They see no contradictions between it and anything in the Book of Mormon.
29 Jan 09
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderi thought it was obvious, perhaps because it was taken out of context,
What exactly does that verse have to do with drinking or not drinking wine?
For the kingdom of God does not mean eating and drinking,
Mormon practice, in forbidding anything that is not manifestly condemned in word or in principle from the scriptures, such as drinking caffeine or wine, is a direct supplantation of this scripture, for Paul was showing, in context, that there are much more important things than eating or drinking, or perhaps you can show where these things are expressly condemned as the basis for these practices.
29 Jan 09
3 edits
Originally posted by NemesioPerhaps I did come across as a bit arrogant, however, I do know a quite a bit about them. So lets get started shall we!!
Wow. You sure are an arrogant jerk. You don't know whether they call
themselves Christian or not (a pretty basic fact) but you know 'a lot about
the theology' and thus know enough to disagree with it?
I guarantee that you couldn't articulate even some of the most basic
tenets of Mormon theology.
Nemesio
It was originally founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith who claimed to have a personal visit from God the Father at the age of 15. He was then introduced to Jesus by the Father who told him that religions were all wrong and all the Christian church's doctrines "were an abomination". Than after his murder in 1844, Brigham Young took the organization to Utah and the rest is history.
Mormonism teaches that the canon of scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. They have 3 sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contains God's revelations. These are the Book of Mormon 2 (Changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, they follow the teachings of these books even when they seem to contradict the Bible. You see, the Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts much like Mohammad teaches those in Islam concerning the Quran. The Quran is the ultimate authority which trumps scripture.
Now lets get to the nitty gritty shall we? The Mormons dance dangerously close to a theology of polytheism, verses monotheism. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these 3 constitute three distinct personages and three Gods". Of course, those outside of Christianity accuse them of the same, however, it is made clear that the trinity is a God that is 3 in 1 much like humans are body, soul, and spirit. In addition, the God of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet earth. They teach that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives", populate their own planets. This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about. In short, Mormon theology humanizes God and deifies man.
Another interesting twist in their theology. They teach that the atonement of Christ was essential for our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is NOT sufficient. In addition, good works are required and one must be baptized in water to be saved and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for their dead.
Ever wonder why you never see a black Mormon? Blacks used to be totally out of the equation. It was taught that Black people were black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence.. (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apaostle Melvin J. BAllard p. 21). "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the preisthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare man and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. (Elder George E. Richards). However, to be fair, the ban was lifted in 1978. It was at that time that the Mormon church said that God had lifted his curse from the African race. Why they could not say that God had never had a curse on them is beyond me. Perhaps it would then cause its followers to question the theology created by men prone to error. You see, like those in Islam, the teaching that the transmission of sin is to everyone via Adams original sin is nonexistent. Therefore, such men as Mohammad and Joseph Smith could be considered "perfect" in this regard thus so were their teachings. As for Christians, only Christ fits the bill.
29 Jan 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAnother Secret Decoder Ring Fan.
yes, to the uninitiated, read the verse in context!
I'll let a Mormon explain it to you (he can quote Paul as well):
As a Mormon, I don’t drink alcohol. I actually don’t smoke or drink coffee/tea as part of my religion as well. These specific commandments (”rules&rdquo😉 came through a revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith in 1833. One of the greatest gifts that God has given us is our physical bodies and He expects us to take care of it. The Apostle Paul recognized this when he wrote in 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
One of the most interesting things is that this commandment was given long before the scientific or medical community had documented the harmful effects of tobacco, alcohol, coffee, etc. In fact, many of these harmful effects are still being discovered today. Just last month, I read about a study published in the Archives of Neurology, an American Medical Association publication. The group performing the study had hypothesized that moderate alcohol consumption would actually slow brain shrinkage–the opposite turned out to be true. While the average brain shrinks at a rate of 2% per decade, the brain of those consuming alcohol shrinks at a much faster pace.
In any event, I’m grateful for this “rule of Mormonism”. It’s helped me lead a very healthy life and respect this “temple” of a physical body that the Lord has given me.
http://www.realmormonism.com/
So why is your reading of the Bible necessarily right and his necessarily wrong?
29 Jan 09
Originally posted by whodeyWhat a bunch of ignorant tripe. Do I really have to refute this point by point? It's virtually entirely wrong.
Perhaps I did come across as a bit arrogant, however, I do know a quite a bit about them. So lets get started shall we!!
It was originally founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith who claimed to have a personal visit from God the Father at the age of 15. He was then introduced to Jesus by the Father who told him that religions were all wrong and all the Christian ...[text shortened]... gard thus so were their teachings. As for Christians, only Christ fits the bill.
29 Jan 09
7 edits
Originally posted by no1marauderi never in fact stated anything to the contrary! did i in any way misrepresent Mormon belief? i only related what actually happened and rather interestingly they used the same line of reasoning as well, but it did not wash!, for quite clearly, wine is a gift from God and when used in moderation its effects are quite beneficial! perhaps you have never read
Another Secret Decoder Ring Fan.
I'll let a Mormon explain it to you (he can quote Paul as well):
As a Mormon, I don’t drink alcohol. I actually don’t smoke or drink coffee/tea as part of my religion as well. These specific commandments (”rules&rdquo😉 came through a revelation to the prophet Joseph Smith in 1833. O ...[text shortened]...
So why is your reading of the Bible necessarily right and his necessarily wrong?
psalm 115:11,
'And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice,
To make the face shine with oil,
And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man'.
or
Look! The best thing that I myself have seen, which is pretty, is that one should eat and drink and see good for all his hard work with which he works hard under the sun for the number of the days of his life that the true God has given him, for that is his portion. Also every man to whom the true God has given riches and material possessions, he has even empowered him to eat from it and to carry off his portion and to rejoice in his hard work. This is the gift of God.
Ecclesiastes 5:18-19
or
1 timothy 5:23
Do not drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.
so, correct me if i am wrong, the actual biblical text does not forbid the drinking of wine, in moderation, nor of caffeine, nor pepsi or coca cola. if one wants to desist then this is a personal decision, for there are NO prohibitions contained in the bible.
and please do not try to claim that the reference is to
unfermented wine as some have tried on occasion, the Hebrews new nothing of the sort.
please be assured No1 i respect most sincerely your adherence to your beliefs, but these prophecy's are particular to Mormons and are not binding on others, for the Christ himself stated, 'Listen to me, all of you, and get the meaning. There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man.' - Mark 7:14,15
29 Jan 09
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAccording to your "logic", 1 Timothy 5:23 means you shouldn't drink water as the words explicitly say so.
i never in fact stated anything to the contrary! did i in any way misrepresent Mormon belief? i only related what actually happened and rather interestingly they used the same line of reasoning as well, but it did not wash!, for quite clearly, wine is a gift from God and when used in moderation its effects are quite beneficial! perhaps you have ne e is to
unfermented wine as some have tried on occasion, the Hebrews new nothing of the sort.
Such ridiculous hair splitting theological disagreements are uninteresting in the extreme. The point is Mormons justify their beliefs by citing Biblical Scripture just like you do. Their interpretation of the "body as a temple" command is certainly plausible. To argue that this somehow "proves" they don't believe in the Bible is patently absurd.
EDIT: As regards God's command via Paul already mentioned:
14-year selective study conducted by UCLA epidemiologist James E. Enstrom tracked the health of 10,000 moderately active LDS people in California and ended in 1987. Of these non-smoking, monogamous non-drinkers, Enstrom concluded from the study "that LDS Church members who follow religious mandates barring smoking and drinking have one of the lowest death rates from cancer and cardiovascular diseases—about half that of the general population. ... Moreover, the healthiest LDS Church members enjoy a life expectancy eight to eleven years longer than that of the general white population in the United States." The standardized mortality ratios (SMRs) for whites in the general population is defined as 100. For males in the study, the SMRs "are 47 for all cancers, 52 for cardiovascular diseases, and 47 for all causes; the SMRs for females are 72 for all cancers, 64 for cardiovascular diseases, and 66 for all causes." For LDS high priests who never smoked cigarettes, exercised, and had proper sleep, the mortality rate was less. The results were largely duplicated in a separate study of an LDS-like subgroup of white non-smoking churchgoers in Alameda, California.[47]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom
30 Jan 09
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderthank you No.1 for affirming that ,the actual biblical text does not forbid the drinking of wine, in moderation, nor of caffeine, nor pepsi or coca cola. if one wants to desist then this is a personal decision, for there are NO prohibitions contained in the bible, this is a Mormon phenomena, on the contrary, Christ stated that it is what issues forth out of a man that defiles him, not what he takes in! that tobacco abuse is clearly a defilement of both flesh and spirit, cannot be denied, but as for these other things, especially wine, the scriptures DO NOT condemn! in fact i toast and salute your stance, mmmm, nothing quite like a glass of Californian red!
According to your "logic", 1 Timothy 5:23 means you shouldn't drink water as the words explicitly say so.
Such ridiculous hair splitting theological disagreements are uninteresting in the extreme. The point is Mormons justify their beliefs by citing Biblical Scripture just like you do. Their interpretation of the "body as a temple" comman rchgoers in Alameda, California.[47]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom
30 Jan 09
the mormons follow a dietary rule called the "word of wisdom" which in the time of joseph smith was just advice but in succeeding generatons has become a rule. it is to avoid alcohol and caffiene. for the holy sacrament ( the eucharist ) they drink water with the bread. the old testament has many dietary laws as well which were rules at the beginning and in the new testament have become advice.
30 Jan 09
1 edit
Originally posted by reinfeldwhat happens if you transgress this dietary rule? do you have confession and stuff?
the mormons follow a dietary rule called the "word of wisdom" which in the time of joseph smith was just advice but in succeeding generatons has become a rule. it is to avoid alcohol and caffiene. for the holy sacrament ( the eucharist ) they drink water with the bread. the old testament has many dietary laws as well which were rules at the beginning and in the new testament have become advice.
30 Jan 09
there is no confession but i do believe that if an elder should ask you about it you would of course have to tell the truth. i don't think there is any penance. you would probably be told to "think on it" and it would be left to an "understanding of the holy ghost " ( a warm feeling of doing or thinking the right way ) to move you to work on not drinking alcohol or taking caffiene. now i believe this is truth for church mormons ( the little church with the steeple that is not a big temple ) but of for temple mormons it could be different as they accept covenants of promise and non-temple mormons do not know all the matters that take place in the temple covenants. this is what i have read about but do not have personal knowledge.