Murder and Abortion

Originally posted by @kellyjay
So you want to kill off some to avoid others from dying?
Picking and choosing are you!
Why not kill off the poor, and elderly using your logic?
If someone cannot produce for the good of the whole, lets make Soylent Green!

I can tell you don't think life has its own meaning in its own right, I do.

Sperm are not children. Eggs are not children. Fertilized eggs are not children. So there's that.

But more important is the idea that we have intelligence. Should we populate until the tipping point happens? Do you even know what that means? Or do you take guidance from a book writ my MEN who didn't know what stars or atoms are? Ancient sheepherders are your moral and ethical guide? You think men should tell women what to do with their bodies?

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
You aren't answering the question of why you think killing embryo's is wrong, you are just restating your position. Why do you think killing an embryo is wrong? Is it just an axiom of your moral compass that killing "innocent" human life is always wrong?

What is your view of Numbers 5:11 onward with respect to this issue?

I'm on my phone not my computer please quote something so I know what context and scripture you are referring to. I have a lot of scripture memorized but not that one.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Killing an innocent needs explained to you? Seriously, you are asking that?

I understand your stance on this. But I don't see how it is consistent with how, in the past, you have asserted the rights of JWs to let their children die for want of the necessary medical treatment [due to their religious beliefs]. Can you explain?

Originally posted by @chaney3
When is murder okay?
Self defense? War?

When is abortion okay?
Rape victim? Saving the mother's life?

"Thou shalt not kill"

These days, abortion is a form of birth control, or part of women's 'rights'.

I understand how the world views abortion. They simply say that the fetus is not really human.

I guess what confuses the poo out of me is, entities such as the Catholic church view abortion as murder, yet they sit back and do and say next to nothing about it, much like they did the Nazi regime during the Holocaust.

Originally posted by @fmf
I understand your stance on this. But I don't see how it is consistent with how, in the past, you have asserted the rights of JWs to let their children die for want of the necessary medical treatment [due to their religious beliefs]. Can you explain?

Let me know if you get anything coherent back.

Originally posted by @whodey
I guess what confuses the poo out of me is, entities such as the Catholic church view abortion as murder, yet they sit back and do and say next to nothing about it, much like they did the Nazi regime during the Holocaust.

It's true that the track record of Christians when it comes to the repression and victimization of Jews - stretching back 2,000 years - is ugly.

Having said that, if extermination camps were built in a Christian country now - in 2017 - and an industrial scale process of killing all the Jews was attempted, I don't think the Catholic church would "sit back and do and say next to nothing about it". Do you?

No, I imagine you don't. So, it raises the question: what parallel are you drawing between the Catholic church's atrocious policy ~ as an institution ~ 70-80 years ago [in stark contrast to the beliefs-driven acts of countless Catholic in those circumstances] and the current view of many or most Catholics that abortion is murder?

Maybe if you address that, it will clear up whatever it is you say "confuses" you.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I'm on my phone not my computer please quote something so I know what context and scripture you are referring to. I have a lot of scripture memorized but not that one.

Happy to oblige - do you also have a response to my first paragraph?

Numbers 5:11 (NIV) Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[e] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
You aren't answering the question of why you think killing embryo's is wrong, you are just restating your position. Why do you think killing an embryo is wrong? Is it just an axiom of your moral compass that killing "innocent" human life is always wrong?

What is your view of Numbers 5:11 onward with respect to this issue?

I did state why, it is that life in its own right is precious and singular, holy gift from God not
to be treated as a piece of crap when we don't like X about who we are talking about, be
they male, female, white, black, American, Russian, or whatever.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I did state why, it is that life in its own right is precious and singular, holy gift from God not
to be treated as a piece of crap when we don't like X about who we are talking about, be
they male, female, white, black, American, Russian, or whatever.

Okay, but why is "life in its own right [...] precious and singular"?

If it is because it is a "holy gift from [the Christian] God," how do you reconcile this with the Bible saying that God himself aborts embryos and foetuses?

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
Happy to oblige - do you also have a response to my first paragraph?

Numbers 5:11 (NIV) Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since ...[text shortened]... ll be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

The thing about the Israelites in the OT, blood lines were very important the son of God
was going to be coming into the world through them. The were very brutal if you couldn't
trace you blood line back, you were left out. An unfaithful wife would cause that whole
bloodline to come into question, no one would know who anyone's real fathers were.

On top of all the STD that could plague a nation, I think pure blood lines were a main
concern. In addition to that vows of marriage were vows before God, to stay faithful when
that is broken one's word becomes meaningless.

One of the things God has done is if the leadership of a country goes bad, the whole
nation is judged as it follows. All of the times you see a new leader written about in text
typically you will see something like "he did good", or "he did evil", and when a leader
sinned greatly where God acted the whole of the nation would pay for it. Which is why
leadership is so important, a national soul is at risk with each one.

Leviticus 20:10
“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
Okay, but why is "life in its own right [...] precious and singular"?

If it is because it is a "holy gift from [the Christian] God," how do you reconcile this with the Bible saying that God himself aborts embryos and foetuses?

Unlike man, God gives us our lives and takes them away. We do not come here because
we want too, we are here because God formed us in our mother's womb. You form anyone
in another's womb? Since we don't create life, we procreate it, it is God not us who is the
author of all life. He sets the times for our beginning, He has plans for us, and He sets the
time for our ending. We end someone's life by murder, we are over stepping our bounds
with the creator of that life.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Unlike man, God gives us our lives and takes them away. We do not come here because
we want too, we are here because God formed us in our mother's womb. You form anyone
in another's womb? Since we don't create life, we procreate it, it is God not us who is the
author of all life. He sets the times for our beginning, He has plans for us, and He sets the ...[text shortened]... We end someone's life by murder, we are over stepping our bounds
with the creator of that life.

What I am trying to understand is: you cite the Christian God as your (only) reason to oppose abortion, yet the Christian God, according to the holy scripture of Christians, does not think that there is anything wrong with abortion. How do you reconcile these contradictory positions?

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
What I am trying to understand is: you cite the Christian God as your (only) reason to oppose abortion, yet the Christian God, according to the holy scripture of Christians, does not think that there is anything wrong with abortion. How do you reconcile these contradictory positions?

I've explained that, He sets rules, i do not, He gives us life and sets the boundaries. What He does, doesn't mean we are allowed to do those same things. He is God we are not!

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I've explained that, He sets rules, i do not, He gives us life and sets the boundaries. What He does, doesn't mean we are allowed to do those same things. He is God we are not!

But why do you think your God does not allow you to abort fetuses, when your holy scripture would suggest the opposite?

Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
But why do you think your God does not allow you to abort fetuses, when your holy scripture would suggest the opposite?

The abortion in scripture wasn't for any reason was it? Even those that went through the process wasn't going to get an abortion if everyone was walking properly. You compare that to any reason for any cause?