25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by TerrierJackThe point that i am trying to get you to realise uncle Jack is that there is a whole consultation process that one goes through before marriage in the East is even considered. For example the boy shall bring a proposal to his prospective mates family, they shall look at his character, is he honest, is his family, is he a hard worker, is he able to provide for their daughter in a manner that she is accustomed to, how does he treat his own parents, etc etc. we are not talking of simply walking into a nightclub and saying, 'resistance is futile, your mine women'. A lot of heartache can be avoided if practical measures are followed.
So we should force people to stay married? (You could not have stayed married to my ex-wife!) Divorce can be a great thing too. People make mistakes - including having sex that they shouldn't. So what? It is not my business to ensure that other people stay married or don't have sex. People should be free.
i do not deny it, that people may marry the wrong person, but what happens in the west, is that the things which should matter most, the character of the person, are pushed aside. Take for example the preposterous attention given to looks, in the media and elsewhere. What is the point of marrying the most gorgeous women alive if she is a 'beeatch', and treats you with contempt? you would be better off sleeping on the roof!
what happens is that people are attracted through purely physical factors, they become emotionally and physically involved, only to discover later, the aspect that really mattered, the persons personality, was not suited. Deny it if you will Uncle Jack, this is the scenario in nine out of ten cases in the western hemisphere.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think the young people need to respect life, to be well educated, perfectly informed and properly supported by their parents, to know themselves and to act responsibly according to their evaluation of the mind instead of having other people patronizing them.
The point that i am trying to get you to realise uncle Jack is that there is a whole consultation process that one goes through before marriage in the East is even considered. For example the boy shall bring a proposal to his prospective mates family, they shall look at his character, is he honest, is his family, is he a hard worker, is he able to p ...[text shortened]... ou will Uncle Jack, this is the scenario in nine out of ten cases in the western hemisphere.
The Indian way as you describe it, it gives me the creeps. In my opinion such a "consultation" over a crucial issue like the marriage, in such circumstances and concerning oh the horror infants, whose interests and abilities have nothing to do with the attitude related to the main perspectives of the concept of a balanced couple being together, is not a consultation but a fatal premature and the equivalent of having the kids chained for life on an electric chair: one has to hope for a permanent blackout😵
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by Proper KnobChristians sin all the time. Everybody knows that. That doesn't mean they believe sin to be OK and morally acceptable - thats practically a contradiction. I certainly am yet to meet a Christian that believed sex outside marriage to be totally sinless, though it is certainly mostly treated as a minor sin and thus engaged by many.
Not in my experience. I've been led to believe that, but the few church going Christians i have met in my life had sex outside of marriage. I think the more fundamentaist elements of Christianity would like us to believe that sex outside of marriage is morally shady, but i believe most Christians don't.
The language used portrays the act of having sex as some sort of dark, seedy, dirty, innapropriate behaviour. What sort of image is that to plant into somebodies head? The article seemed to be aimed at merely scaring people. Add Robs 'dangers of pre-marital sex' statement into the mix and the overiding image i have in my head is fear!!
I fully agree that the articles tone has the danger of scaring people. However, we have to understand that it is hardly something new. Parents have historically threatened their children with scare stories regarding anything they don't want their children to get involved in as children and quite often that has had an impact on them later in life. This practice is not restricted to parents and children but is practiced in many other situations including leaders to their followers and seems to be extra popular in Christianity. I frequently hear Christians painting a scary picture of hell and telling horror stories about sin etc, yet when you question them further you find out that they don't believe what they are saying.
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetlewhile infants admittedly in some instances are married, this is not generally the case. It may upset out western perceptions but the point that i am trying to make is that it has certain practicalities to go through a process of consultation. In some instances it is merely a formality. A boy sees and likes a girl, he approaches his father and states, i like this lady let us send a proposal of marriage. The parents of his prospective partner will enter into consultation with their daughter, do you like this boy, is he of good character, is he able to look after you etc etc and thus it becomes more of a formality although one can say it has been 'arranged'. Thus a system of precautions are put in place. If however emotions get in the way and the parents do not consent, because the boy is poor, not well educated etc etc well, you have the makings of every Hindi film since Bollywood began. So you see beetle is not a case of patronising, but of mere practicality. If you are of an age and are a responsible person you can say to your parents, please find someone for me to marry and it is your parents responsibility to try to find you a prospective life partner.
I think the young people need to respect life, to be well educated, perfectly informed and properly supported by their parents, to know themselves and to act responsibly according to their evaluation of the mind instead of having other people patronizing them.
The Indian way as you describe it, it gives me the creeps. In my opinion such a "consultati ing the kids chained for life on an electric chair: one has to hope for a permanent blackout😵
My friend, when he was choosing his wife, please note the word 'choosing', had the choice of many young ladies and only after he found someone that he could live with, consented to set the marriage arrangement in process. How this can be construed as patronising to him, i do not know.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAre you going to find prospective partners for your children?
while infants admittedly in some instances are married, this is not generally the case. It may upset out western perceptions but the point that i am trying to make is that it has certain practicalities to go through a process of consultation. In some instances it is merely a formality. A boy sees and likes a girl, he approaches his father and stat ...[text shortened]... age arrangement in process. How this can be construed as patronising to him, i do not know.
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI thought of another angle to take on the topic of abstinence before marriage and the association with teenage pregnancy.
while infants admittedly in some instances are married, this is not generally the case. It may upset out western perceptions but the point that i am trying to make is that it has certain practicalities to go through a process of consultation. In some instances it is merely a formality. A boy sees and likes a girl, he approaches his father and stat age arrangement in process. How this can be construed as patronising to him, i do not know.
I'll re-post the text from earlier in the discussion from
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2010/01/26/index.html
The significant drop in teen pregnancy rates in the 1990s was overwhelmingly the result of more and better use of contraceptives among sexually active teens. However, this decline started to stall out in the early 2000s, at the same time that sex education programs aimed exclusively at promoting abstinence—and prohibited by law from discussing the benefits of contraception—became increasingly widespread and teens’ use of contraceptives declined.
“After more than a decade of progress, this reversal is deeply troubling,” says Heather Boonstra, Guttmacher Institute senior public policy associate. “It coincides with an increase in rigid abstinence-only-until-marriage programs, which received major funding boosts under the Bush administration. A strong body of research shows that these programs do not work. Fortunately, the heyday of this failed experiment has come to an end with the enactment of a new teen pregnancy prevention initiative that ensures that programs will be age-appropriate, medically accurate and, most importantly, based on research demonstrating their effectiveness.”
Noitce the text i put in bold which basically says, abstinence programs do not work. If that is the case, do you not think then it is irresponsible for Christian groups to continue with this model when it blatantly doesn't work?
25 Feb 10
5 edits
you see, i do not know why they advocate abstinence, for this is not what the Bible counsels. If you cannot handle it, and you are biting the pillow every night because of natural desire for sexual intimacy, then it counsels, not that you should abstain, but that you should find someone to marry. Better that than chewing your pillow!
(1 Corinthians 7:9) . . .But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDeny it if you will Uncle Jack, this is the scenario in nine out of ten cases in the western hemisphere.
The point that i am trying to get you to realise uncle Jack is that there is a whole consultation process that one goes through before marriage in the East is even considered. For example the boy shall bring a proposal to his prospective mates family, they shall look at his character, is he honest, is his family, is he a hard worker, is he able to p ...[text shortened]... ou will Uncle Jack, this is the scenario in nine out of ten cases in the western hemisphere.
Any evidence to back this rather bizarre claim?
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieChewing your pillow? Not sure what you get up to.
you see, i do not know why they advocate abstinence, for this is not what the Bible counsels. If you cannot handle it, and you are biting the pillow every night because of natural desire for sexual intimacy, then it counsels, not that you should abstain, but that you should find someone to marry. Better that than chewing your pillow!
(1 Corinthi ...[text shortened]... t have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion.
So to curb peoples natural sexual drive, we should just go and get married to the first person we meet just so we can have sex?
Genius Rob.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIn my world the parents have the responsibility to notice that their teenager likes another and that both children are heading towards a relationship that is something more than a common friendship. The parents of both the children should be well aware of the intentions of their young ones and they should keep a close eye on them -but a marriage proposal is definitely out of order.
while infants admittedly in some instances are married, this is not generally the case. It may upset out western perceptions but the point that i am trying to make is that it has certain practicalities to go through a process of consultation. In some instances it is merely a formality. A boy sees and likes a girl, he approaches his father and stat ...[text shortened]... age arrangement in process. How this can be construed as patronising to him, i do not know.
I see no reason why a teenager would ask from her/ his parents to find someone for her/ him to marry, sure thing, although I agree that in a balanced family with open communication lines it's wise to talk about this issue too. However in my opinion the responsibility and the final decision regarding marriage does not belong to the parents but to the couple -it’s strictly their life, so it's their decision.
This miserable atheist black beetle will keep his personal opinion and will leave ye Rabbie, along wi yer fellow Christians and them Indians free to enjoy yer way regarding this matter the way ye please
😵
25 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper Knobthe first person they meet, huh? wow, thats rather sensationalistic, even by your standards noobster, and no one is talking of 'curbing', any natural desires, that again, is your slant!
Chewing your pillow? Not sure what you get up to.
So to curb peoples natural sexual drive, we should just go and get married to the first person we meet just so we can have sex?
Genius Rob.
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFair enough.
the first person they meet, huh? wow, thats rather sensationalistic, even by your standards noobster, and no one is talking of 'curbing', any natural desires, that again, is your slant!
But you didn't answer my question about whether it is irresponsible to pursue a policy that doesn't work?