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23 Oct 15
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
This thread is not about me, its not about Jehovah's Witnesses, its not about you. What its actually about is words of Christ. If you have anything to say about the words of Christ then let those words be known, if not, then this is not the thread for you.
Hmmm. I see.
That's funny. It seems not long ago I was writing in a thread and you definitely turned it to be about me. The thread was -
3,7,12, or 40 and your comment was -
3 points to the triune God???? wow you never miss a chance to impose your paganism onto scripture, do you.
That thread you seemed to want to make about me.
But this one "Its not about YOU, sonship".
Rather selective, I think.
So you are saying that Jesus actually was forsaken by God? Yes I have read similar expressions, whether its the case I cannot say at present.
Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. And I definitely believe He was forsaken by God. And that is a great mystery because He is God. He is God mingled with man. He is Godman.
The reason has already been given why it may be the case, that God needed to let Christs integrity be tested to the full extent.
If God cannot abide with SIN and God made Him (who knew no sin) to be sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21) I can see why He was forsaken.
But I believe what you say about testing is also true.
In leading many into the mingling of God and man He Himself was tested to the uttermost.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb. 2:10)
Originally posted by sonshipok ignoring your irrelevancies, here is an interesting idea,This thread is not about me, its not about Jehovah's Witnesses, its not about you. What its actually about is words of Christ. If you have anything to say about the words of Christ then let those words be known, if not, then this is not the thread for you.
Hmmm. I see.
That's funny. It seems not long ago I was writing in a thread and ...[text shortened]... ory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Heb. 2:10) [/quote][/b]
The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin* for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. - 2 Corinthians 5:21
* or a sin offering
Clearly Christ was a sinless and unblemished sacrifice. The idea that he was sin or became sin finds no place in the Bible and the idea that God therefore forsook him because he was or became sin is demonstrably false. He was a sin offering.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok ignoring your irrelevancies, here is an interesting idea,
Oh Yes, yes.... ignore the hypocrisy. Its not about you.
The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin* for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. - 2 Corinthians 5:21
* or a sin offering
Clearly Christ was a sinless and unblemished sacrifice. The idea that he was sin or became sin finds no place in the Bible and the idea that God therefore forsook him because he was or became sin is demonstrably false. He was a sin offering.
That God made Him sin finds its place in the Bible in precisely 2 Cor. 5:21.
You boast of your Greek knowledge. Which Greek word in Second Cor. 5:21 translates "offering" ?
Originally posted by sonshipYou cannot be sinless and be sin, get a grip!ok ignoring your irrelevancies, here is an interesting idea,
Oh Yes, yes.... ignore the hypocrisy. Its not about you.
[quote]
The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin* for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. - 2 Corinthians 5:21
* or a sin offering
Clearly Christ was a sinless and unblemished ...[text shortened]... ast of your Greek knowledge. Which Greek word in [b]Second Cor. 5:21 translates "offering" ?[/b]
I did not translate the text. Here is the reference.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-corinthians/5/#v47005021 - sin offering is a footnote to the text,
the original Greek merely uses a word which is usually translated as sin. However that the specific term sin offering does not actually exist in the Greek text does not mean that the term cannot be translated or understood to mean a sin offering, clearly Jesus was a sin offering or have you never read,
And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s - 1 John 2:2
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
Hebrews 7:26
For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Jesus cannot be sinless and be sin, its a nonsense. Its much more plausible that the text refers to Christ being a sin offering. This at least makes sense.
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23 Oct 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You cannot be sinless and be sin, get a grip!
So when the word of God says "He made Him to be sin" it means He [DID NOT] make Him to be sin" ?
I did not translate the text. Here is the reference.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-corinthians/5/#v47005021 - sin offering is a footnote to the text,
I may read that latter.
Suffice it to notice that you do not believe that the text SAYS [offering] .
I have no problem with Christ being a sin offering.
But what it SAYS is that God made Him to be sin.
In John 3 Christ used the symbol of the bronze serpent lifted up on a pole to signify the meaning of His death. Bronze is a material signifying judgment.
That He was lifted up as the bronze serpent surely means that in Him Satan was judged. Satan is the source of all sin.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, That every one who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14.15)
Christ died not only as "the Lamb of God" but also as the bronze serpent made sin for us and judged.
How about we just take God's word for it that He who knew no sin was made sin that we might be come the righteousness of God in Him?
Numbers 21:4-9 was about the murmuring Israelites being bitten by poisonous serpents which were killing them. God told Moses to lift up a bronze serpent on a pole. Whoever looked at that bronze serpent would be healed and would live.
God gave the world a pre-shadow of a great coming truth in the book of Numbers. The picture was there. And the caption underneath the picture was Christ being made sin for us on His cross and judged by God.
If we believe into Christ we will be healed of the Satanic poisonous nature injected into the sons of Adam. We can be sanctified, saved, and have eternal life.
He had knew no sin became sin for us on His cross that we might be healed and justified and also have the Satanic nature nullified.
the original Greek merely uses a word which is usually translated as sin. However that the specific term sin offering does not actually exist in the Greek text does not mean that the term cannot be translated or understood to mean a sin offering, clearly Jesus was a sin offering or have you never read,
And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s - 1 John 2:2
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
Hebrews 7:26
For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Jesus cannot be sinless and be sin, its a nonsense. Its much more plausible that the text refers to Christ being a sin offering. This at least makes sense.
It makes sense to us who realize that Christ's death is not only the Redeeming power but the Terminating power as well.
" I am crucified with Christ ..." (Gal. 2:20)
" Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death." (Rom. 6:3)
"For he who has died is justified from sin." (v.6)
"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him ..." (v.8)
"So also you, reckon yourselves to be dead to sin, but living to God in Christ," (v.11)
This and many other verses furnish the Christian with the truth that we have no only been REDEEMED by the blood of His sacrifice but have had the old nature TERMINATED by His death.
In the Holy Spirit is not only the cleansing and redeeming effect of the blood. There is also the killing off power - the terminating power of His Satan killing death. For He died as the bronze serpent. He died as the one made sin.
His death was also a judgment and condemnation upon sin in the flesh -
"For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit." (Rom. 8:3,4)
I choose to take Christ's death as not only the redeeming Lamb but the terminating bronze serpent killing off the sin nature. In either regard, all of this benefit is in the Holy Spirit. And we appropriate both His redemption and His terminating power of in the Holy Spirit.
I don't have to completely understand it. I am called to believe it.
So I believe that
" For the love of Christ constrains us because we have judged, that One died for all, therefore all died.
And He died for all that those who live may no longer live to themselves but to Him who died for them and has been raised." ( 2 Cor. 4:14,15)
How dare you teach people that this is about an angel MIchael.
This is about God Himself who became a man.
And He was made sin for us, the very judged serpent, somehow, that we might be crucified with Him and we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
23 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipToo long sonship. Jesus managed to express himself succinctly, please try to follow his example.You cannot be sinless and be sin, get a grip!
So when the word of God says [b]"He made Him to be sin" it means He [DID NOT] make Him to be sin" ?
[quote]
I did not translate the text. Here is the reference.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/2-corinthians/5/#v47005021 - sin offering is a footnote to t ...[text shortened]... mehow, that we might be crucified with Him and we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.[/b]
Originally posted by divegeesterstraw man and a logical fallacy, no one has claimed that you have deviated from any script. If you are going to assume false values and attempt to build arguments on those false values can you do it in another thread? This thread is about the words of Christ.
Please should which part of your OP I have not "stuck" to?