01 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonhouseThat means that your wife married your son and the Bible really does have a lot to say about that 😉. What denomination is she ordained into?
On a more pleasant note, my son got married Saturday, my wife is ordained and did the ceremony. What you might get a kick out of, he wore a full on Scottish kilt, the whole regalia, and he has a red beard so he really looked authentic! Our family name is McCart so we are really Irish background but he sure looked Scots with that kilt! We also had a Scots p ...[text shortened]... he vertical department! He is also in the gifted program at school, already applied to Stanford!
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipJohn did not include Jesus' cry of "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" in his Gospel. Was he not "faithful"? Is he a "less than honest propagandist"?
The interesting thing is that the Gospel writer was faithful to include this cry of Jesus. A less than honest propagandist could have figured that it gave fuel to their opposition to Christ's self declaration as God's sent Son.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
02 Nov 15
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I read that what Jesus was feeling was the weight of sin and he was experiencing separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. I don't know if I agree with that either. Jesus was not a sinner, he did not sin, he was perfect, sinless, blameless, an unblemished sacrifice. There is not a shred of evidence in the account which states that Jesus became overwhelmed by the weight of sin and I don't know where the idea originates from either.
We should take into account His own interpretation of His coming death.
How did His speak of His upcoming death Himself ?
IE.
" But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am pressed until it is accomplished." (Luke 12:50)
His coming crucifixion He considered His baptism. He also indicates asks an ambitious John and James if they are able to endure the baptism that He will experience.
" But Jesus said to them, You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup which I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized ? " (Mark 10:38)
Like Him they will die for the will of God (v.39). But they will not share with Him in being the Lamb of God shedding His blood for the redemption of sinners. For they are not without blemish as a perfect Man.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
02 Nov 15
2 edits
Jesus indicates that His coming death is a God ordained baptism -
" But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am pressed until it is accomplished." (Luke 12:50)
He also indicates that He is the antitype of the brass serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses. How can one sinless who said "Which of you convicts Me of sin?" refer to Himself as the brass symbol which stood for a deadly poisoness serpent, usually a symbol of something pernicious and evil in the Bible ?
" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, That ever one who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14)
Those who believe in Him have eternal life. But why does He use such a symbol as the brass serpent to be the object of their faith ?
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipFor healing, "By His stripes we were healed"
Jesus indicates that His coming death is a God ordained [b]baptism -
" But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am pressed until it is accomplished." (Luke 12:50)
He also indicates that He is the antitype of the bronze serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses. How can one sinless who said "Which of you ...[text shortened]... l life. But why does He use such a symbol as the brass serpent to be the object of their faith ?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
02 Nov 15
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes, surely, His suffering and death is to us who believe a cause of healing and salvation.
For healing, "By His stripes we were healed"
His coming death is His God ordained baptism.
Christ was on the cross six hours. In the first three hours we see all the pain brought upon Him by mankind. But from the 9th hour (half way through His ordeal ) what came upon Him was supernatural and beyond the control of mankind.
"Now from the ninth hour darkness fell over all the land until the ninth hour. And about ninth Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me." (Matt. 17:45)
The earthquake, the darkness over the earth, and the tearing of the veil of the temple from top to bottom all point to things beyond the control of mankind.
This baptism Christ underwent therefore, was not only the human torment inflicted upon by the Roman torturers. We believe that the accompanying supernatural calamities indicate that forsakeness from God who cannot look upon sin.
Whether He quoted Psalm 22 or Psalm 22 prophetically quoted Him, I do not know. I know that the Word became flesh.
Isn't it peculiar that some of people can read the Gospels and be touched with His loving death for us? And others can read it and only seem to be filled with contempt and suspicion about this Son of God - Jesus.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
02 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipYes it is peculiar since he could have called 72000 angels to rescue him. He held on with all his mind soul and strength for us. He took upon himself every disease, every heart ache, every sin past present and future, for each one of us. He held on til all was fulfilled, then and only then did he give up his spirit.
Yes, surely, His suffering and death is to us who believe a cause of healing and salvation.
His coming death is His God ordained baptism.
Christ was on the cross six hours. In the first three hours we see all the pain brought upon Him by mankind. But from the 9th hour (half way through His ordeal ) what came upon Him was supernatural and beyond the ...[text shortened]... an read it and only seem to be filled with contempt and suspicion about this Son of God - Jesus.
We don't know the physical pain, the mental torment he must have felt.
I don't think God forsake him though, I think even in agony he was ministering to the crowd and reminding them of Psalm 22. He gave until his last breath!
Throughout the old testament and throughout time I don't see God forsaking sinners and certainly not his first and only begotten son. Just my OP of course.
02 Nov 15
Christ Jesus Baptism Into His Death.
Jesus knew at the time of his baptism in the Jordan River that he was entering upon a sacrificial course. He knew that his ‘prepared body’ must be put to death, that he must die in innocence as a perfect human sacrifice with ransoming value for mankind. (Mt 20:28) Jesus understood that he must be plunged into death but that he would be raised out of it on the third day. (Mt 16:21) So he likened his experience to a baptism into death. (Lu 12:50) He explained to his disciples that he was already undergoing this baptism during his ministry. (Mr 10:38, 39) He was baptized fully into death when he was plunged into death by being impaled on the torture stake on Nisan 14, 33 C.E. His resurrection by his Father Jehovah God on the third day completed this baptism, which includes a raising up. Jesus’ baptism into death is clearly distinct and separate from his water baptism, for he had completely undergone water baptism at the beginning of his ministry, at which time his baptism into death only began.
jw.org
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
03 Nov 15
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't think God forsake him though, I think even in agony he was ministering to the crowd and reminding them of Psalm 22. He gave until his last breath!
As He is God incarnate, I kind of agree with you that it is impossible to think of God not being involved with His death. This is a mystery that is too difficult for me to explain.
But when Jesus was baptized in the water the economical Spirit was upon Him through His ministry. I believe this economical Spirit upon Him for ministry is what withdrew prompting Him to feel forsaken by God. But it is a deep matter which I only scarcely see.
Think about what you are saying. If He was mistaken and uttered foolishness that God had forsaken Him when God had not , then how can you say He ministered truth to the crowd ?
If His utterance was an error than it would have been the first and only time He was not standing in truth.
Now I like what you wrote about His ministering to the people. He could not help but, because of Who He is - God as a man.
I think the entire verse did pertain to His agony.
Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Why are You so far from saving me, From the words of my groaning."
The mocking religionists said that He saved others but could not save Himself. His utterance was about the facts of the situation. Don't you think ?
03 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe father did not forsake Jesus, he let him be tested to the utmost of human endurance. There was no error in the Christ, no infidelity, no lack of faith, he was and is the faithful and true witness. Why would God withdraw the Holy spirit? what evidence is there for this?I don't think God forsake him though, I think even in agony he was ministering to the crowd and reminding them of Psalm 22. He gave until his last breath!
As He is God incarnate, I kind of agree with you that it is impossible to think of God not being involved with His death. This is a mystery that is too difficult for me to explain. ...[text shortened]... ut could not save Himself. His utterance was about the facts of the situation. Don't you think ?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
04 Nov 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe father did not forsake Jesus, he let him be tested to the utmost of human endurance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is true that Christ as a man was tested.
But it is also true that He suffered beyond human endurance.
He offered Himself to God through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14).
Since we cannot know the extent of this offering of Himself the Old Testament presents the pictures of the consecration offering being burnt up by fire. And other offerings detail how the inward parts of the animal had to be meticulously handled and roasted.
These symbols show how utterly pure Christ's inward being was in its minutest detail yet how thoroughly His every part of His being was roasted with the divine fire of God judging Him on our behalf.
There was no error in the Christ, no infidelity, no lack of faith, he was and is the faithful and true witness.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because He was perfect, that is why He ALONE could be the perfect propitiatory offering for our sins. I believe that God answer His prayer when He said -
" Father, forgive them. for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34a)
The prayers of the Son of God are all mighty and of eternal impact. So open is the ears of the Father to His petition that His request is granted. And the only way God could forgive them who execute God in a man, was to judicially deal with the sins of the world in this Son.
Then those who believe into Him may be forgiven. In fact in Him they are judged. Christ died for them as a Substituted requesting their eternal pardon.
But His sinlessness is precisely the point.
" Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we may become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
Why would God withdraw the Holy spirit? what evidence is there for this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the thing you have to deal with is whether or not Jesus spoke the TRUTH when He uttered "Why have you forsaken Me?"
The finer point of exactly what happened may be very deep and mysterious for we have no experience of this. And we cannot. But we have to settle it whether the Son of God was in error or was in truth when He uttered those awful words.
I believe that He spoke the truth, as always He did.
Intrinsically He was God man.
Yet He also was anointed with the Holy Spirit from His baptism.
It was that anointing that left Him in the last three hours, I believe.
But before His baptism and during His ordeal and forever He is intrinsically God incarnate as a man.
- Joined
- 08 Dec 04
- Moves
- 100919
04 Nov 15
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipHe said My God, My God.... not because he felt forsaken, but because he was quoting Psalm 22 to remind those there of what the Psalm said. Psalm 22 described what was happening to him at that moment.I don't think God forsake him though, I think even in agony he was ministering to the crowd and reminding them of Psalm 22. He gave until his last breath!
As He is God incarnate, I kind of agree with you that it is impossible to think of God not being involved with His death. This is a mystery that is too difficult for me to explain. ...[text shortened]... ut could not save Himself. His utterance was about the facts of the situation. Don't you think ?
I also do not see him as a godman, but as a man, the son of God.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
04 Nov 15
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I also do not see him as a godman, but as a man, the son of God.
Do you know what the word mingle means ?
It means to combine two or more things in such a way that they remain distinquishable in the combination.
In Jesus Christ there is the mingling of God and man. We discern in one Person God and we discern in Him humanity.
But that He is God who became flesh is evident. The Word was with God and was God (John 1:1). "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us,..." (v.14)