14 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipyou learned i from other people that just made it up, fine, its still just made up.
I didn't make it up. I learned it from others with more spiritual experience and insight into the word of God.
You can think that it is fanciful and imaginative if you wish.
But for those who have an ear to hear ... , the number four in the Bible, as four winds, four chariots, four sections of the image, four corners of the earth, four living cre ...[text shortened]... whole creation. You read [b]Daniel, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Revelation and you can't see that ?[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
14 Nov 15
8 edits
"Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying,
Tell Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest to take the censors up out of the burning and scatter the fire about; for they are holy.
The censors of those who have sinned against their own lives, let them be made into beaten plates for a covering of the altar., for they presented them before Jehovah and they became holy. So they shall be a sign to the children of Israel." (Numbers 16:36-38)
The altar was made of acacia wood. And it was overlaid with bronze. Acacia wood signifies the humanity of Christ and bronze signifies the judgement of God.
Copper, bronze, and brass speak of God's judgment.
Where did the bronze COME FROM ? If you read Numbers 16 and especially verses 37,38 you can see that the bronze for the altar came from an incident of God judging two hundred and fifty rebellious ones.
These 250 people rejected the deputy authority of Moses. And they attempted to usurp the priest Aaron's function. They foolishly approached close to God and offered their own self prescribed incense offering. The fire of God came forth and they were destroyed. They were judged.
After God judged them, He charged Moses to take the bronze censors and use them to overlay the altar. Therefore the bronze overlaying the altar indicates divine judgment. And this is another strong reason to believe that on the cross, the real altar of eternity, Christ was JUDGED by God in our place.
Christ was fully judged by God. And in this full judgment He cried out that God had forsaken Him. As the Man who died on the cross, Christ was fully under the judgment of God as our Substitute. We are the rebels. Christ died for us.
14 Nov 15
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipThe alter that you are referring to was destroyed or carried off by the Babylonians when they sacked Jerusalem. There were two altars, one for burnt offerings and the altar of incense.
[quote] [b] "Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying,
Tell Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest to take the censors up out of the burning and scatter the fire about; for they are holy.
The censors of those who have sinned against their own lives, let them be made into beaten plates for a covering of the altar., for they presented them before Jehovah and t ...[text shortened]... st was fully under the judgment of God as our Substitute. We are the rebels. Christ died for us.
The altar of incense for the temple was made of cedarwood, but this seems to have been the only difference between it and that of the tabernacle. It was likewise overlaid with gold.—1Ki 6:20, 22; 7:48; 1Ch 28:18; 2Ch 4:19.
At the inauguration of the temple Solomon’s prayer was offered before the altar of burnt offering, and at its conclusion fire came down from the heavens and consumed the sacrifices on the altar. (2Ch 6:12, 13; 7:1-3) Despite the fact that it covered an area of over 79 sq m (850 sq ft), this copper altar proved too small for the immense quantity of sacrifices made then, and so a portion of the courtyard was sanctified for that purpose.—1Ki 8:62-64.
In the latter part of Solomon’s reign, and in the reigns of Rehoboam and Abijam, the altar of burnt offerings came into neglect so that King Asa found it necessary to renew it. (2Ch 15:8) King Uzziah was stricken with leprosy for attempting to burn incense on the golden altar of incense. (2Ch 26:16-19) King Ahaz moved the copper altar of burnt offering to one side and put a pagan altar in its place. (2Ki 16:14) His son Hezekiah, however, had the copper altar and its utensils cleansed, sanctified, and restored to service.—2Ch 29:18-24, 27
Postexilic Altars. The first thing built in Jerusalem by the returning exiles under Zerubbabel and High Priest Jeshua was the altar for burnt offerings. (Ezr 3:2-6) In due time a new altar of incense was also made.
The Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes carried off the golden altar of incense, and two years later (168 B.C.E.) he built an altar over the great altar of Jehovah and offered up a sacrifice to Zeus thereon. (1 Maccabees 1:20-64) Judas Maccabaeus thereafter built a new altar of unhewn stones and also restored the altar of incense.—1 Maccabees 4:44-49.
The altar of burnt offerings of Herod’s temple was made of unhewn stones and, according to Josephus (The Jewish War, V, 225 [v, 6]), was 50 cubits square and 15 cubits high, though the Jewish Mishnah (Middot 3:1) gives smaller dimensions for it. It was to this altar, therefore, that Jesus made reference in his day. (Mt 5:23, 24; 23:18-20) The altar of incense of that temple is not described, but Luke 1:11 shows that an angel was standing to the right of it when he appeared to John’s father Zechariah.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
15 Nov 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWas this supposed to be informative of some things you assumed I was not aware of ?
The alter that you are referring to was destroyed or carried off by the Babylonians when they sacked Jerusalem. There were two altars, one for burnt offerings and the altar of incense.
The altar of incense for the temple was made of cedarwood, but this seems to have been the only difference between it and that of the tabernacle. It was likewise o ...[text shortened]... shows that an angel was standing to the right of it when he appeared to John’s father Zechariah.
15 Nov 15
Originally posted by sonshipThese are facts Jaywill, biblically established facts. There is no going beyond what is written as your imaginative teachers have done.
Was this supposed to be informative of some things you assumed I was not aware of ?
Here is a question for you Jaywill, we know that the temple arrangement was a pattern of heavenly things, what do the court of women and the court of gentiles represent?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
15 Nov 15
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am not bothered in the least by such a barrage of objective information.
In the book of Hebrews the writer indicates that he did not even have time to speak of all the spiritual significances of the furniture of the tabernacle.
"Above it [the ark in the tabernacle] the cherubim of glory overshadowing the propitiatory place, concerning which it is not now the time to speak in detail." (Heb. 9:5)
Obviously there was great spiritual significance to the tabernacle and the temple and all their furnishings.
We are even told that the Holy of Holies was a figure of the present new testament time.
" ... while the first tabernacle still has its standing, which is a figure [or symbol] of the present time." (v.9a)
Some scoffer's failure to grasp the spiritual significance of Old Testament types and shadows is their loss, not ours. You just go ahead and occupy yourself with objective information quite easy for the natural man to recite.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
15 Nov 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
These are facts Jaywill, biblically established facts. There is no going beyond what is written as your imaginative teachers have done.
If you compare the life of Joseph the beloved son of Jacob you will see quite much reminds of Jesus Christ.
He was betrayed by his brothers.
He was three days in a pit.
He was sold cheaply for silver.
He was unfairly persecuted and yet ascended to be ruler in the world.
Nowhere in the New Testament is it specifically written that Joseph is a type of Jesus Christ. But it is obvious to us who love Jesus Christ and see so much allegorization in the Genesis story of Joseph.
Those who truly love the Lord Jesus have also pointed out much typology in the things God told His people to make. Each symbology, I think, can be backed with clear teaching from the New Testament.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Nov 15
I have pointed out that the symbolism of the four horns of the altar concerns the power of the redemption to reach all people in the four corners of the world. The horns are like the horns of the powerful ox.
We are told that the word of the cross is the power of God.
" For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)
The altar of all eternity is the cross of Jesus where He died an all-inclusive death. This powerful divine act has untold and infinite eternal strength and energy. The word that this cross of Christ can do will bring about the New Jerusalem as the culmination of human history - the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.
The allegorical golden city mountain New Jerusalem is seen with three gates on each of the four sides -
"On the east three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. " (Rev. 21:13)
The twelve gates consist of three towards each of the four corners of the earth. Christ's redemptive death is powerful to reach all the earth. And the entrance into the final divine / human "city" of the mingling of God and man is the result of Christ's salvation reaching the four corners of the earth.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
16 Nov 15
3 edits
We are talking about Christ's utterance that He had been forsaken by God on His cross. I have taken the tract that this being forsaken by God was because of God's divine judgment upon Christ.
This was a suffering far greater than what man with His nails whips, nails, and crown of thorns could do. From eternity Christ only knew oneness with His Father. In the hours from "the sixth hour" He was under God's judgment. Toward the end of this period He then cried out not to the Father but to "My God, My God".
"Now from the sixth hour darkness fell over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying., Eli, Eli lamasabachthani? that is, My God, My God why have You forsaken Me? " (Matt. 27:45,46)
Most all of the offerings in the Old Testament speak of the offering of Christ for us. And of particular note is the offering Abraham made in Genesis 15:7-21 concerning God making a covenant to give Abraham's descendants the good land.
In the midst of this offering of animals "a terror of great darkness" fell over Abraham as he went into a deep sleep.
" And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a terror and great darkness fell upon him.
And He said to Abram, Know assuredly that your seed will be sojourners ... afterward they will come out with great possessions." (See Gen. 15:12,13)
The terror of great darkness may speak of the judgment upon the Son of God Who is the real offering of all the symbolic offerings. The sun being darkened (though I think no eclipse was recorded) and His crying out, forsaken by God indicate God's judgment.
He who know no sin was made sin on our behalf that we could become the righteousness of God in Him. The power of this redemptive act will require eternity to appreciate.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
18 Nov 15
1 edit
It is important to find out the significance of the grating. The grating was made of bronze. In typology, bronze signifies the righteous judgment of God. This should also be the significance of the grating being made of bronze. In the foregoing message we pointed out that the altar should be related to a person, for it was made of acacia wood overlaid with bronze. This signifies that Christ became a man to die on the cross to bear the judgment of God for us. The cross is not merely a thing; it is related to a person, as indicated by the fact that the altar, a type of the cross, was made of acacia wood, which signifies the humanity of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, the cross is related to a person, and this person is Christ.
The bronze grating within the altar signifies that God’s judgment reached the inward parts of Christ. God’s judgment upon Christ as our Substitute was not merely outward. The holy fire of God’s judgment was not just outside of Christ, but also burned within Him. This is indicated in Psalm 22, a psalm concerning the sufferings of Christ on the cross. Verse 14 says, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.” This indicates that when Christ bore God’s judgment, that judgment reached His heart, His inward parts. His bones were out of joint, but His heart melted in His inward parts. This means that God’s judgment upon Christ was experienced more inwardly than it was outwardly.
From The Life Study of Exodus - The Altar of Burnt Offering (2) , Msg. 105, by Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry pgs. 1218,1219, (my bolding)
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2003C9
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
19 Nov 15
1 edit
The cry of Jesus that He was forsaken by God is because of God's judgment upon Him.
This death of the Godman Jesus has eternal power and significance.
The bronze grating upon which the fire burned the offerings had four rings of bronze at its four corners. The rings signify the eternal aspect of Christ dying for us.
Hebrews 9:14 says that Christ offered Himself through the eternal Spirit.
" How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered without blemish to God, purify our conscious from dead works to serve the living God."
What Jesus did on the cross was through the eternal Spirit. Because the element of eternity is intrinsically involved in Jesus' death, it cleanses the conscience in a way that is forever.
The bronze rings of the bronze network grating upon which the offerings burned speak of Christ offering Himself through the eternal Spirit.
The bronze rings are also the means by which the altar was born and carried. Man bears the testimony of Christ's redemptive death to the world and through many centuries because His act has eternal power.
Two polls of acacia wood overlaid with bronze were made to pass through the bronze rings so that the priests could lift up and carry the altar.
Two polls signifies testimony.
Two polls borne by four priests speak of created man bearing up and moving with the truth of Christ's redemptive sacrifice.
The two polls also signify that the gospel is carried out and borne in coordination. Jesus sent His apostles out two by two. And His disciples must bear about the message of Christ's redemption in love and coordination together as a testimony.
The polls for carrying the altar also prove that it was to be carried about by man. The altar was not to be moved about by animals. And there were serious consequences when it was moved by ox cart during its capture and Israel's degradation.
Man must bear the testimony of Christ's redeeming death. Man was do so in coordination and with the eternal aspect pf Christ's death signified in the bronze rings.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
20 Nov 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieyou learned i from other people that just made it up, fine, its still just made up.
you learned i from other people that just made it up, fine, its still just made up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Much of the same complains were made of the prophets.
Jeremiah was accused of making stuff up that the scoffers didn't believe came from God. Before him Moses was similarly accused of just inventing things.
The truth of the cross of Christ is not laid out systematically as the human mind would expect. Here a little truth and there a little truth it is presented in piecemeal fashion.
Like the pieces of a puzzle the deeper truths of Christ's cross are given. Some servants of God have been enlightened to help us gather up the pieces of the puzzle.
20 Nov 15
Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1, which begins with, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:
"Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me. They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots."
The term, "dogs," was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing His clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.
Psalm 22 was written about 1,000 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenicians developed it, and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose Biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the Scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.
https://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/why-did-jesus-cry-out-my-god-my-god-why-have-you-forsaken-me
The above is the normal accepted orthodox Christian view of why Jesus repeated those words from Holy Scripture.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 Nov 15
1 edit
I would add a further word about the divine judgment of God falling upon Christ in addition to all the torture He received from human beings.
"My God, My God why have you FORSAKEN me?"
This was the prophet's Isaiah's prophecy in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah. IE.
"But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief,
When He makes Himself an offering for sin, ... " (Isaiah 53:10)
Though Psalm 22 speaks of the torment brought on Jesus from the Roman soldiers it also speaks of His being forsaken by God. And Isaiah 53 says it "Jehovah was pleased to crush Him". That is when Jesus made Himself a sin offering for all mankind. He was judged by God in our place,
Isaiah goes on to say Jesus bore the sins of the sinners.
"Because He poured out His life unto death And was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He bore the sin of many And interceded for the transgressor." (v.12b)
Sin is an abomination to God. It invites the wrath of God.
Christ bore our sins and interceded that God would forgive us.
God answered that prayer but on two conditions.
1.) The wrath of God would demonstrate that He will not let sin go without justice being brought upon it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
2.) Those who are in Christ, and who believe into Him, have Him as their Substitute. Substitution takes place as a man is put by God into the sphere of the Person of Christ. We are commanded to believe into His name, into Himself.
" We all like sheep have gone astray; Each one has turned to his own way, And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall upon Him." (v.6)
Typo: I left out the word "Himself" above on Hebrews 9:14.
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself [edited] without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Nov 15
1 edit
Why did Christ have to offer Himself "through the eternal Spirit" (Hebrews 9:14) ?
Christ was God Almighty. As God Almighty become a man we should think that He can do everything nevessary to accomplish redemption. Why then did He need the eternal Spirit in order to die on the cross ?
Anyone ? Especially I would like to hear from those who believe Christ is God.