No Man's Opinion is Expressed in The Watchtower

Originally posted by FMF
galveston75 has, in fact ignored me on this matter. If "he will retract it" anyway, what does it matter?

where is the statement, you have been asked approximately five times to produce the statement, where is it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
where is the statement, you have been asked approximately five times to produce the statement, where is it?

I know I'm still waiting too as usual.....

Originally posted by FMF
Thread 146196

Let me clear this up. As of now the only absolute God inspired book we have is the Bible. But God does direct his followers and gives us all guidance by his holy spirit. The brothers that do the writing of all our material are guided by God. But as the explination below shows as in the case of the apostles, they were imperfect men just as we all are and mistakes will happen just as all of us make.
Just as with the apostles that made mistakes and did not always understand spiriual issues, God still directed them and used them to feed the congregations spiritual food just as he does today.
If one demands perfection from an organization that claims to be guided by God and that is the only way they will accept that God does work thru an organization, that person will never find that. It does not exist. This is where Jesus said you will recongnize them by their fruits. He never said they would be perfect..........




"There is clearly a distinction between the inspired writings of the Bible and other writings that, while manifesting a measure of God's spirit’s direction and guidance, are not properly classed with the Sacred Scriptures. As has been shown, in addition to the canonical books of the Hebrew Scriptures, there were other writings, such as official records concerning the kings of Judah and Israel, and these, in many cases, may have been drawn up by men devoted to God. They were even used in research done by those writers who were inspired to write part of the Sacred Scriptures. So, too, in apostolic times.

(((((( In addition to the letters included in the Bible canon, there were doubtless many other letters written by the apostles and older men to the numerous congregations during the course of the years. While the writers were spirit-guided men, still God did not place his seal of guarantee distinguishing any such additional writings as part of the inerrant Word of God. The Hebrew noncanonical writings may have contained some error, and even the noncanonical writings of the apostles may have reflected to some degree the incomplete understanding that existed in the early years of the Christian congregation. Compare Ac 15:1-32; Ga 2:11-14; Eph 4:11-16.))))))))

However, even as God by his spirit, or active force, granted to certain Christians the “discernment of inspired utterances,” he could also guide the governing body of the Christian congregation in discerning which inspired writings were to be included in the canon of the Sacred Scriptures.—1Co 12:10"

Originally posted by galveston75
Let me clear this up. As of now the only absolute God inspired book we have is the Bible. But God does direct his followers and gives us all guidance by his holy spirit. The brothers that do the writing of all our material are guided by God. But as the explination below shows as in the case of the apostles, they were imperfect men just as we all are and ...[text shortened]... sus said you will recongnize them by their fruits. He never said they would be perfect..........

So you are retracting what you said on that thread?

Originally posted by FMF
So you are retracting what you said on that thread?

Sure in the sense I should have used the word "guides" instead of "inspired". Will that work for you and make your day full of sunshine and butterflys? 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
Sure in the sense I should have used the word "guides" instead of "inspired".

Well, wait a minute. You made multiple posts over several thread pages addressed to other posters too and not just me. It was a sustained laying out of your beliefs about the role "God" plays in producing your organisation's production of "printed material", with repeated comparisons to the bible's writers etc. You cannot seriously claim it was a case of one word incorrectly used in the place of another. You need to decide whether or not you are going to retract the entire point of view that you propagated over a relatively lengthy sequence of posts.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, wait a minute. You made multiple posts over several thread pages addressed to other posters too and not just me. It was a sustained laying out of your beliefs about the role "God" plays in producing your organisation's production of "printed material", with repeated comparisons to the bible's writers etc. You cannot seriously claim it was a case of one wo ...[text shortened]... the entire point of view that you propagated over a relatively lengthy sequence of posts.

I will absolutley not retract the "meaning". God guides humans and always has. But as I clearly said no human is perfect and will not always understand what is being shown to them by God.
Get the point here................our liturature is not the Bible and does not replace the bible. They are Bible aids written by humans that are guided by God.
I'm sorry you can't understand that but I have no idea how else to explain it to you.

Originally posted by galveston75
I will absolutley not retract the "meaning". God guides humans and always has. But as I clearly said no human is perfect and will not always understand what is being shown to them by God. Get the point here................our liturature is not the Bible and does not replace the bible. They are Bible aids written by humans that are guided by God. I'm sorry you can't understand that but I have no idea how else to explain it to you.

Actually, I think your problem here is not that I "can't understand" but that I in fact understand you all too well.

At one point in our discussion about the comparison between the bible and the JW materials you talked about "God [being able to]cause a human to write on paper what he wants other humans to read," which cannot be explained away by you saying the word "guides" should have been used instead of "inspires".

Indeed, you also said "you don't seem to understand that the printed page can be used as one of God's avenues to teach. It's been done since the ten commandments."

The clear meaning of this also cannot be explained away by claiming the word "guides" would have been better than "inspires".

Originally posted by FMF
Actually, I think your problem here is that I understand you all too well.

At one point in our discussion about the comparison between the bible and the JW materials you talked about "God [being able to]cause a human to write on paper what he wants other humans to read," which cannot be explained away by you saying the word "guides" should have been used ins ...[text shortened]... lained away by claiming the word "guides" would have been better than "inspires".

You enjoy making things as complicatied as you can as usual. I expalined in the best way I know how, after all I am not perfect.
You should get the point I'm making but it seems you can't.

Anyway I have to leave now the second day of our district assembly so I can be "guided" by God to progress in my spirituality. I may not understand all that is being said and may make a mistake in the future when I explain what I learn today. Bt at least I'm trying to progress and enjoy the info that is being taught, even if they might make a mistake in their explinations. Jehovah will forgive us........

Originally posted by galveston75
You enjoy making things as complicatied as you can as usual. I expalined in the best way I know how, after all I am not perfect.

It is you and robbie that "make things complicated" by never explicitly answering questions about your religious organisation. This thread and the 1914 thread are typical extended 'debates' which arise because you set your organisation up on a spiritual pedestal, but continually obfuscate when asked direct questions challenging that position.

Edit: and you change your position when it suits you, as FMF has evidently demonstrated with the link to that other thread. The confusion rests with you.

Originally posted by galveston75
You enjoy making things as complicatied as you can as usual. I expalined in the best way I know how, after all I am not perfect. You should get the point I'm making but it seems you can't.

I don't think it's "complicated" at all. Why not just answer the specific points I have made using verbatim quotes from your posts on that other thread?

Originally posted by galveston75
.. The brothers that do the writing of all our material are guided by God. ..

Now that makes perfect sense. God is guiding the WT 'brothers' in the wrong direction and causing them to fail. Those who God does not approve of, he will indeed lead them astray and cause their predictions to be 100% false.

Clearly then God does not approve of the WatchTower Organisation.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you seem to be missing the point, the assertion is that we have claimed inspiration,
clearly there is no evidence that we have ever claimed that the watchtower magazine is
inspired, sating that it does not contain any mans opinion, is not a claim of inspiration
the same as if i cite a Biblical verse in a post and claim that it contains no mans ...[text shortened]... ion, but it does not address the actual
assertion that we have claimed inspiration, does it.

I see. Rutherford does in fact incriminate himself as giving an opinion (if it was Rutherford) but does not incriminate himself for passing it off as inspired, at least, he does not do so with these words.

The meaning of "contains no man's opinion" does not logically imply "has only inspired content" and does not even imply "has some inspired content." It leaves the source or nature of what it contains, unspecified. If there is other text in the publications that say they (the publications) are not inspired, this would wrap up the matter.

There is a specific discussion of "contains no man's opinion" at:

http://ed5015.tripod.com/JW_DICTIONARY.html

Search on "contains" at that link.

I believe it is quite relevant and would like your opinion and g75's opinion of it if you care to comment. Here is part of it for those without time to dig into the link.

quote:

In the 1930s Rutherford claimed, "The Lord is using and has used The Watch Tower from its foundation..." (Vindication I 1931, 77) and it contains "no man's opinion" or "human interpretation" but what God has "revealed":

The writer does not give his opinion. No human interpretation of scripture is advanced. (Reconciliation 1928, 6)

[notre from JS: I am still quoting, all the way to the end of this post.]

The Watchtower recognizes the truth as belonging to Jehovah, and not to any creature. The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in The Watchtower. (w1931 11/1 327)

The Watchtower is not the teacher of God's people. The Watchtower merely brings to the attention of God's people that which he has revealed… (w1934 5/1 131)

The Watchtower would not and does not give any man's opinion, but, guided by the Lord and used by him, sets forth to the remnant information which Jehovah and the Lord Jesus Christ give them concerning the Scriptures and concerning things brought to pass which are in fulfillment of the prophecies. (w1936 3/15 85)

The Lord has graciously provided for the publication of his message in the form of books, that the people may be informed of the truth… Those books do not contain the opinion of any man. They merely enable you to locate the words of the Lord and to find out the very things you desire to know; and doing this, you are obeying God's commandments. (Riches 1936, 353-354)

It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communication to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose. (y1939, 85)


The publications are from "almighty God" and the information from angels:

The resolutions adopted by conventions of God's anointed people, booklets, magazines, and books published by them contain the message of God's truth and are from the almighty God, Jehovah, and provided by him through Jesus Christ and his underofficers... Jehovah…provides all material for the purpose of preparing his fiery message… (w1938 5/1 143)

But it seems certain that when Jesus came to his temple and began his work of judgment he would direct his holy angels to take the necessary action to cause the separation of the disapproved from approved ones, and would use his angels to bear messages to them to direct the approved ones as to what to do. (w1930 9/1 203)

These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instructions which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instructions on to the remnant. The facts show that the angels of the Lord with Him at His temple have been thus rendering service unto the remnant since 1919. (Vindication III 1931, 250)

This is proof that the interpretation of prophecy does not proceed from man, but that the Lord Jesus, the chief one in Jehovah's organization, sends the necessary information to his people by and through his holy angels. (Preparation 1933, 28)

Certain duties and kingdom interests have been committed by the Lord to his angels, which include the transmission of information to God's anointed people on the earth for their aid and comfort. Even though we cannot understand how the angels transmit this information, we know that they do it; and the Scriptures and the facts show that it is done. (Preparation 1933, 36-37)

Enlightenment proceeds from Jehovah by and through Christ Jesus and is given to the faithful anointed on earth at the temple, and brings great peace and consolation to them. Again Zechariah talked with the angel of the Lord, which shows that the remnant are instructed by the angels of the Lord. the remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. (Preparation 1933, 64)

He [Jesus] stated that when he appeared for judgment he would be accompanied by his angels, which angels carry out his orders. Without doubt these angels are delegated by the Lord to convey his instructions to the members of his organization on earth. (World Recovery l934, 54)

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