04 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyLewis I do not take seriously as a philosopher and Socrates' quote has that tricky word 'emotional' in it, which may not rule out logically-based, yet subjective, brands of morality.
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike. Unless we return to the crude and nursery-like belief in objective values, we perish." C.S. Lewis
"A system of morality which is based on relative emotional values is a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and ...[text shortened]... e legitimate moral authority, what would protect the depraved human race from destroying itself?
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by SwissGambit"What does it have to do with real moral deliberation?" -SG
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. This obsession with "final", "ultimate", "absolute". What does it have to do with real moral deliberation?
It doesn't matter whether I look up, down, sideways, inwards, or outwards for the answers. Point is, no matter where I may get them, I sign off on them, or not.
.... then, what does "moral deliberation" have to do with?
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by SwissGambitOriginally posted by SwissGambit
It has to do with making decisions based on the tangible concerns of real life.
It has to do with making decisions based on the tangible concerns of real life.
“So, on beyond Z! It’s high time you were shown. That you really don’t know. All there is to be known.” ~Dr. Seuss
"About this quote: Seuss’s 1955 illustrated children’s book On Beyond Zebra! is the source of this quote. The narrator of the story of a narrator invents 26 new letters to come after the letter “Z,” each accompanied by an imaginary animal, such as a “Floob-Boober-Bab-Boober-Bubs” for the new letter “Floob,” and “Miss Fuddle-dee-Duddle” for the new letter “Fuddle.” This quote, and the idea of the book in general, encourage young readers to stretch their imaginations and think outside of the box.[WORD TOO LONG]/hidden]
http://www.quotery.com/25-memorable-dr-seuss-quotes/
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou seem to be confusing moral absolutes with moral authority. They are not the same thing at all.
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike. Unless we return to the crude and nursery-like belief in objective values, we perish." C.S. Lewis
"A system of morality which is based on relative emotional values is a mere illusion, a thoroughly vulgar conception which has nothing sound in it and ...[text shortened]... e and lawful moral authority, what would protect the depraved human race from destroying itself?
A moral authority could still have relative morals.
Moral absolutes could exist without a moral authority.
And you have provided no argument whatsoever that leads one to believe that the absence of a moral authority would cause the human race to destroy itself.
Originally posted by Great King Rat"Why would start to destroy ourselves?" Great King Rat (and twhitehead) Comment to you both: God knew in eternity past that man would sin and that the universal sin nature would have unlimited potential to commit destructive covert and overt sins; as well as the insidious corruption of evil which has manifest itself throughout human history. In order to preserve and perpetuate human existence, God instituted Four Divine Institutions: the individual; marriage, family and the national entity. He delegated a primary authority within each institution: volition for the individual; the husband for marriage; parents for the family; and government for the national entity. Despite wars, these provisions continue to keep the human race intact.
Why would start to destroy ourselves?
Edit: so pretty much the same question that twhitehead just asked.
04 Mar 14
You asked your question in the OP to us atheists. You know we lack a belief in god and therefore also in what you regard as sin - and therefore we also lack a belief in the "destruction of the human race as a result of that sin".
So, can you explain why even atheists must have some kind of "moral authority" because "otherwise the human race will destroy itself"?
Remember, you can not use god in any way because we lack a belief in any god.
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by Great King RatLack of belief in god I well understand; news to me that you don't believe in sin. I did hesitate to answer your questions because to so honestly would entail reference to God. If you believe human beings are in a state of sinless perfection, why are maximum security penitentiaries at full occupancy? Why do communities have law enforcement officers? Please try to understand that morality per se is neither spirituality nor Christianity. If you don't believe in Creation, the concept of a Creator making structural provision of divine institutions with delegated temporal authority wouldn't make sense either, even though the benefits accrue to atheists and theists alike without discrimination. Appears we're at an impasse for the nonce. I've got a doctor's appointment in the morning and errands to run but will give thought to your questions and our lack of a common frame of reference for the purpose of continuing later this week. Meanwhile, let's return to the OP. Thanks.
You asked your question in the OP to us atheists. You know we lack a belief in god and therefore also in what you regard as sin - and therefore we also lack a belief in the "destruction of the human race as a result of that sin".
So, can you explain why even atheists must have some kind of "moral authority" because "otherwise the human race will destroy itself"?
Remember, you can not use god in any way because we lack a belief in any god.
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyGrampy Bobby: "He delegated a primary authority within each institution - the husband for marriage"
Why?
Do you really believe that the husband should be the obvious head in an marriage? Don't you believe in equality between sexes?
In what denomination do you belong?
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by FabianFnasGenesis 2:19-25 New American Standard Bible "19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said,
Grampy Bobby: "He delegated a primary authority within each institution - the husband for marriage"
Do you really believe that the husband should be the obvious head in an marriage? Don't you believe in equality between sexes?
In what denomination do you belong?
“This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."
Note: The primary authority of the husband in marriage does include marital relations (in which either may initiate and/or respond). Both husband and wife have shared authority over the children. I'm not a member of any denomination. Nite...
04 Mar 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyFiltering out the unnecessary in your posting, I come to a conclusion that you don't believe in equality between sexes, that you in fact believes that man is superior over woman, right? I just want this to be confirmed.
Genesis 2:19-25 New American Standard Bible "19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of ...[text shortened]... and wife have shared authority over the children. I'm not a member of any denomination. Nite...