Our "-isms" "-ologies"

@fmf said
I don't have one that corresponds to yours or that's comparable to it. I just have my interests in history anthropology, language and similar things.

I'm not asking what you have that compares to mine; I'm asking for yours.

@kellyjay said
I'm not asking what you have that compares to mine; I'm asking for yours.

Having heard what you mean by "meta-narrative", I can say I don't have one.

@fmf said
Having heard what you mean by "meta-narrative", I can say I don't have one.

So when you talk about the supernatural, you have nothing to replace the beginning
with you only have you don't like the idea?

@kellyjay said
So when you talk about the supernatural, you have nothing to replace the beginning
with you only have you don't like the idea?

I don't have to "replace" what you just so happen to believe in with anything.

My speculations do not need to trump yours.

For example, I speculate that, even if we were created by a creator entity of some kind, we haven't been given any instructions about rewards and punishments ~ as you think we have ~ and I don't even see why this possible creator entity needs to be anthropomorphized. This is all subjective conjecture, of course, as is yours on such matters.

It does not matter to me, or to you, surely, if these speculations don't float your psychological boats.

And it's not that I "don't like the idea" of supernatural causality.

I simply [1] acknowledge that neither of know what the origin of the universe is/was, assuming it had one; and [2] as a student of the human condition, as we all are, I am more interested in the extraordinary [and sometimes incoherent] doctrines you extrapolate from your belief in supernatural causality, such as...

[A] you are immortal
[B] your "sins" have been forgiven
[C] your beliefs include a certainty that I will be tortured for not sharing them

and so on

@fmf said
I don't have to "replace" what you just so happen to believe in with anything.

My speculations do not need to trump yours.

For example, I speculate that, even if we were created by a creator entity of some kind, we haven't been given any instructions about rewards and punishments ~ as you think we have ~ and I don't even see why this possible creator entity needs to be an ...[text shortened]... iven
[C] your beliefs include a certainty that I will be tortured for not sharing them

and so on

You tell me what I know and don't know is a bit presumptuous. How is that is
different than me saying God started it all; it is a truth claim that you are making
about me and what I could know, while mine is about God starting it all because
there is no other sound explanation that also isn't supernatural.

Your speculation is telling me what I have experienced is not what I have experienced
and mine about God starting it all is a reasoned out explanation for the beginning
they are completely different for one is the reason, the other is you comparing me
to yourself, since something wasn't true for you, you assume it isn't for me.

@kellyjay said
You tell me what I know and don't know is a bit presumptuous.

I don't think it is "presumptuous" at all. I think it's just calling a spade a spade. All I see you doing is replacing the word "believe" with the word "know" simply in order to signal your feeling of certainty.

@kellyjay said
Your speculation is telling me what I have experienced is not what I have experienced
and mine about God starting it all is a reasoned out explanation for the beginning
they are completely different for one is the reason, the other is you comparing me
to yourself, since something wasn't true for you, you assume it isn't for me.

I have experiential knowledge of faith. Your feelings about what you have experienced ~ what you have attributed to supernatural transformation [of you], and what things you have become so sure about that you refer to them incessantly as "objective truths" ~ are easily explained.

@kellyjay said
How is that isdifferent than me saying God started it all; it is a truth claim that you are makingabout me and what I could know, while mine is about God starting it all becausethere is no other sound explanation that also isn't supernatural.

My opinions about your beliefs and religious doctrines are subjective just as your opinions about the "truth" of my beliefs and the consequences of lack of religious doctrines are subjective.

@fmf said
I don't think it is "presumptuous" at all. I think it's just calling a spade a spade. All I see you doing is replacing the word "believe" with the word "know" simply in order to signal your feeling of certainty.

You say you know about me because of what you have gone through, suggesting
there can be no experience anyone can have that is any different than what you have
had. There is a huge difference here! I say believe because I cannot prove it; I have
faith about the world outside of me, you say you know, because of the world inside
of you.

@kellyjay said
You tell me what I know and don't know is a bit presumptuous. How is that is
different than me saying God started it all; it is a truth claim that you are making
about me and what I could know, while mine is about God starting it all because
there is no other sound explanation that also isn't supernatural.

Your speculation is telling me what I have experienced is not w ...[text shortened]... r is you comparing me
to yourself, since something wasn't true for you, you assume it isn't for me.

God starting it all is a reasoned out explanation for the beginning

What you extrapolate from it is more interesting to me. You can't give me a "reasoned out explanation" for your claims that [A] you are immortal, [B] your "sins" have been forgiven, and [C] your certainty that I will be tortured for not sharing them. If you could, I would most likely adopt your beliefs.

@kellyjay said
You say you know about me because of what you have gone through, suggesting
there can be no experience anyone can have that is any different than what you have
had.

What you have "gone through" [and are still going through today] is easily explained. Your descriptions of what you have experienced as a result of your faith are no different from descriptions of what I experienced as a result of my faith.

@kellyjay said
I say believe because I cannot prove it.

Then, what am I supposedly being "presumptuous" about when I point out that neither of us knows what the origin of the universe is/was?

@kellyjay said
I have
faith about the world outside of me, you say you know, because of the world inside
of you.

Faith influences your perception of what's exterior to you and what's interior to you. It's just a function of cognition. Inspiring, empowering, life-changing, even. Yes. Of course. But just a function of cognition all the same.

During the 25 years of my own faith, I would NOT have accepted this. Not at all. But my experiential knowledge of faith has given me insights that, it seems, you do not have - or that you feel compelled to resist, just like I once would have resisted them.

@fmf said
What you have "gone through" [and are still going through today] is easily explained. Your descriptions of what you have experienced as a result of your faith are no different from descriptions of what I experienced as a result of my faith.

Yes there is a difference that goes beyond the intellect only, believing in one’s head or heart. With one you can talk about it being away or a part from God, the other it is really real.

@kellyjay said
Yes there is a difference that goes beyond the intellect only, believing in one’s head or heart. With one you can talk about it being away or a part from God, the other it is really real.

The heart is an organ that pumps blood throughout your body.