Spirituality
14 Jul 18
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @secondsonPonder this for one second : do you strive to live at peace with your family and your neighbours (as Paul commands, btw)?
Do you really believe it is in man to achieve anything remotely resembling peace? Ever?!
You would be naive of you if you did.
And how do you go about it, if you are really honest and serious - by a little give-and-take, and a small dose of mutual respect, hey?
Not so difficult after all, provided there is the will to try.
No need to wait till Jesus' return.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @caljustThe idea isn't that we can't try to be peaceful or that we should give up hope of global peace. But as the bible makes clear, the whole body of humanity is corrupted and because of that, global peace is literally impossible.
Ponder this for one second : do you strive to live at peace with your family and your neighbours (as Paul commands, btw)?
And how do you go about it, if you are really honest and serious - by a little give-and-take, and a small dose of mutual respect, hey?
Not so difficult after all, provided there is the will to try.
No need to wait till Jesus' return.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @secondsonYou do realise, of course, that this statement could be (and most probably HAS been) made word for word by a Jyhadist Muslim?
Any attempt by man to bring about a unified confederacy of nations under the banner of a "Global Ethic" not in accordance with the truth of the one and only living God will result in the dismal failure already demonstrated by history.
Would you offer such a person the right to make that statement just as you obviously confer on yourself the right to pronounce it?
Just wondering if you thought this through...
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyHi Tom,
The idea isn't that we can't try to be peaceful or that we should give up hope of global peace. But as the bible makes clear, the whole body of humanity is corrupted and because of that, global peace is literally impossible.
I must assume that you are honest and are voicing your serious thoughts on this matter. So I will explain as briefly as I can what I meant by the OP.
For the record, I am a Christian and speak from within a Christian framework (FMF can attest to this, we have had some fruitful exchanges).
The Christian religion is a self-contained, internally consistent and logically sound system. It gives an explanation for all the big questions: Who am I? Where do I come from? What is my purpose for being here? Where am I going? What happens after death? And so on. Everything is described and explained. And we expect others to honour our belief in this system and let us worship God in peace.
HOWEVER, you will find that every single major religion is exactly the same! The each have their own Holy Book, their explanation of the Big Questions I mentioned above, and they share the Christian claim to be taken seriously, and their viewpoint to be acknowledged.
But, of course, there is a small problem.
As a part of each religion's holistic and integrated belief system there is the built-in (explicit, as in Judaism and Islam and Christianity, and implied in Buddhism and Hinduism) claim that THIS IS THE ONLY WAY! All others are wrong and doomed to hell!
So can you see why quoting from your "own" scriptures that "Jesus is the Way!" does not really answer anything for the "other" guy? He has his own scriptures to refute that - which, obviously, you will in turn refute, and so on ad infinitum. Until we see no other way but to kill each other.
To try and make a smorgasbord of all religions to the lowest common denomenator is clearly ridiculous and a non- starter. So, here is what I (and I believe Hans Küng and many others) are saying:
1. Stick with your own particular belief and religion and exercise it to the fullest extent of your desire.
2. But recognise that the other guy is trying to do exactly that. Allow him/her the full right to practice their religion.
3. Realise that the God in whom you profess to believe is far, far bigger than our own small concept of Him and may even smile in favour on some people whom you do not consider as members of your own tribe!
Could you maybe try to wrap your mind around this idea? It's not that difficult!
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @caljustI was speaking specifically about world peace being impossible due to the corrupted state of mankind. But yes I can wrap my head around that and I mostly agree with it. I don't know how far you take #3 (how pleased God can be with a pagan or unbeliever) but at face value I have no problem with your points, brother!
Hi Tom,
I must assume that you are honest and are voicing your serious thoughts on this matter. So I will explain as briefly as I can what I meant by the OP.
For the record, I am a Christian and speak from within a Christian framework (FMF can attest to this, we have had some fruitful exchanges).
The Christian religion is a self-contained, internall ...[text shortened]... own tribe!
Could you maybe try to wrap your mind around this idea? It's not that difficult!
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyPaul addresses the issue of other religions here
I was speaking specifically about world peace being impossible due to the corrupted state of mankind. But yes I can wrap my head around that and I mostly agree with it. I don't know how far you take #3 (how pleased God can be with a pagan or unbeliever) but at face value I have no problem with your points, brother!
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) (Romans 2:13-15 KJV)
Summary:
- some have neither the Law of Moses nor Law of Christ
- they follow the law written in their hearts and live according to their conscience
- these people will be judged by God
In addition Jesus mentioned the other sheep which he had which are not of the Jews
Originally posted by @rajk999The sheep know their shepherd's voice. Those who know the teachings of the Bible will be pulled to them if the person is a child of God.
Paul addresses the issue of other religions here
[i](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, the ...[text shortened]... ged by God
In addition Jesus mentioned the other sheep which he had which are not of the Jews
The only good a person can do is a result of God's work within the person.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @eladarAye! [raises a frothy mug]
The sheep know their shepherd's voice. Those who know the teachings of the Bible will be pulled to them if the person is a child of God.
The only good a person can do is a result of God's work within the person.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyThanks Tom, appreciate your reply.
I don't know how far you take #3 (how pleased God can be with a pagan or unbeliever) but at face value I have no problem with your points, brother!
Somebody once said whatever you think about God, you are sure to be wrong.
This has been so throughout Scripture. The early ideas the Israelites had about their God was all fire and thunder. Then Jesus came and said: "You've got it all wrong! He's not like that at all!" (If you don't agree, just check all the quotes Jesus gave of the OT. Never once did he focus on the Wrath of God!)
Just read some of the Christian mystics, like St John of the Cross, Meister Eckhardt, Theresa of Avila and others about their concept of God. Mind-blowing, to say the least.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @caljustTo some degree, I have always believed that. I would say none of us will have it completely right.
Somebody once said whatever you think about God, you are sure to be wrong.
Mystics? Nah. No thanks.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @caljustYou have a screwed up view of Jesus' teachings. But then I suppose that can't be helped.
Thanks Tom, appreciate your reply.
Somebody once said whatever you think about God, you are sure to be wrong.
This has been so throughout Scripture. The early ideas the Israelites had about their God was all fire and thunder. Then Jesus came and said: "You've got it all wrong! He's not like that at all!" (If you don't agree, just check all the quotes Jes ...[text shortened]... ckhardt, Theresa of Avila and others about their concept of God. Mind-blowing, to say the least.
Jesus states most people will not inherit eternal life. This is not a message consistent with the feel good Jesus you have in your head. Jesus brings the message that most people will end up weeping and gnashing their teeth.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @eladarHere's the thing: Proving something from within its own constructs is circular reasoning.
The sheep know their shepherd's voice. Those who know the teachings of the Bible will be pulled to them if the person is a child of God.
The only good a person can do is a result of God's work within the person.
In Jesus' day the pharisees said to him: you give witness about yourself, your testimony cannot be true (or taken seriously).
Jesus did not dispute the validity of the claim that any testimony must come from outside. That is a clear principle not only in our own judicial system, but also in the Bible (...from the mouth of two or three witnessess...).
So you cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible! This is such a basic point, but it happens all the time here on RHP.
Let's say you found a book somewhere and in this book it is written: These are the ultimate holy words of the prophet Zap and the sky will fall on your head if you don't eat your brussel sprouts!
Do you take this book seriously or not?
The reason why I take the Bible seriously is because of external proofs, such as scholarship over many centuries. But I also find that many, many texts in the Bible are framed by the culture and practices of the time, especially the OT.
So if you are dismissing what I propose because of a verse in the Bible, then you are speaking from within your own constructs, and not trying to take an outside, objective pov.
Although, I hasten to admit, you are in good company. For most Christians on RHP the very idea is anathema!
Originally posted by @caljustEvery point of view concerning the nature of reality is circular reasoning. Only true believers with blind devotion can't see it.
Here's the thing: Proving something from within its own constructs is circular reasoning.
In Jesus' day the pharisees said to him: you give witness about yourself, your testimony cannot be true (or taken seriously).
Jesus did not dispute the validity of the claim that any testimony must come from outside. That is a clear principle not only in our own ...[text shortened]... hasten to admit, you are in good company. For most Christians on RHP the very idea is anathema!
What I stated is fact according to the Bible. Jesus had little concern with the spiritually dead. He only concerned himself with reaching those who are children of God at heart. If the city rejects his teachings brush yourself off and move on.
18 Jul 18
Originally posted by @eladarAccording to Christ, most people will not inherit eternal life because most people will not be considered righteous by Christ. Christ was clear who are the righteous and its these people who give of themselves to those in need :
You have a screwed up view of Jesus' teachings. But then I suppose that can't be helped.
Jesus states most people will not inherit eternal life. This is not a message consistent with the feel good Jesus you have in your head. Jesus brings the message that most people will end up weeping and gnashing their teeth.
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me:
I was sick, and ye visited me:
I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
(Matthew 25:35-36 KJV)
Those who do not do these things are cast out.
Makes no difference who they are or how much Jesus they claim to eat.