Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ

Originally posted by boonon
Paul is saying that the Jews are subject to the law, (works) but we (Gentiles are not).

However we Gentiles do the law (works) because the love of Jesus is written on our hearts.

But it is more than that.

Compare Romans 2 with Matthew 7.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Precisely.

I guess he's not too into following Christ if he can't even show love for his Christian brothers. This is the exact same thing I called Robbie out on a few months back.

It doesn't really bother me that much because I can do a bit of insulting too.
So robbie and I get along fine, even though I do not consider him a Christian
brother in Christ. I still show my brand of love for him.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Precisely.

I guess he's not too into following Christ if he can't even show love for his Christian brothers. This is the exact same thing I called Robbie out on a few months back.

I've seen Robbie say he was sorry I've never seen him do that.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
Boy .. you are a real drama queen. I think you need to find yourself and nice man and settle down KM.

I'm a man actually and I have a lovely wife. But never mind about that.....

I refuse to de-value what I believe by entering into such slander and back-biting. I offer you only love , peace and discussion Rajk. I will not always agree with you but I will try and respect you. You let yourself down when you say such things. You are better than that and you know it. We all are. We are all called to love and show compassion and understanding.

Jesus said the greatest commandment was to LOVE God and LOVE others. There's more to love than simply giving money to the poor etc , it also means behaving and speaking with a kindness and gentleness of spirit. It also means learning to receive God's love in your heart - The reason? --Because if we are not loved first how can we give love to others?

Surely even you can see the merits of a discussion about love. It was after all Jesus's greatest commandment to us all. People don't just need food and shelter they also need emotional and spiritual care and understanding from Christians. These are equally good works as finding homes for people or donating time and money. (man cannot live on bread alone)

In order to care and understand others and offer them emotional support we need to become Christlike and not be judgmental , impatient or unkind. And the kind of care needed can only be cultivated by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

I just don't understand what your problem with this is - especially since it was something Jesus commanded. People here are listening to what you are saying but you are not listening to them. You don't seem to want to meet us halfway. It's a shame.

Originally posted by Suzianne
But it is more than that.

Compare Romans 2 with Matthew 7.

Yes I agree, I was on lunch break when I wrote that. I should have taken more time to elaborate. Sorry.

Originally posted by JS357
My point is that the Christians will be those that ARE faithful, not those that merely claim to be. You seem, here, to say that God will see as Christian, all those who claim to be, and then rule them in and out, by their works.

In James, it is said that "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." This seems to support the view y e good works without Christian faith, which some Christians seem to believe is not possible.

I dont know how God will define a Christian. If God does in fact define a Christian as one with faith and also with works to match his faith, then certainly that Christian can and will escape judgment as God knows them already. That actually accords with certain Bible passages.

If God defines a Christian as one who proclaims his faith and accepts Christ with his mouth then there will have to be a judgment. That also has Biblical support.

The consideration of the works of those claiming to be faithful is an important one. Many Christians here think that proclaiming that they accept Christ with their mouth is enough for them to be saved by grace. I am saying that their works [in the form of following Christ commandments] is also essential for eternal life.

Whether God makes the judgment on the continual basis throughout the lifespan of the faithful or he makes it in one lump sum on judgment day, I cannot say for sure. Both methods are in the Bible.

What I know for sure and what you seem to be also saying, is that there is an important element of good works which is necessary for eternal life. The faithful must have good works to match their faith. It will be automatic and normal with the true faithful to have good works. Their lifestyle will leave no doubt to those around them that they have good works as it will be visible for all around to see [although they wont do it just for people to see].

Let me stress that the faithful with good works are NOT saved by their good works. They are saved by grace. They are saved by the death of Christ who paid the price [death] for our sins. Grace gives them the eternal life, because without that grace their good works would not give them eternal life. Their good works is proof of their faith, without that proof their faith is dead, a sham and just empty words. Faith and works go hand in hand to those who are truly faithful [God knows who they are as you say].

On the other hand there are those claiming to be 'true' Christians but whose deeds are contrary to the teachings of Christ, but who claim to be saved by grace. They will certainly have to face judgment.

How people [as opposed to God], define Christians is a totally different story. Apparently many people think that once someone accepts Christ and they are baptised they are a Christian and they ..
- receive the holy spirit
- they are regenerated
- they get eternal life
- they are saved eternally .. ie no amount of sinning will lead them to damnation.

All that is totally wrong according to the Bible.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im giving out some good free advice. How is that contrary to the 'fruit of the spirit'. Same advice to you. You people are drama queens. My suggestion to you ladies is to settle down. Too much estrogen in your system seems to be the problem.

Misogyny does not become you.

Originally posted by JS357
Misogyny does not become you.

That's the Christian way though.

Originally posted by boonon
Paul is saying that the Jews are subject to the law, (works) but we (Gentiles are not).

However we Gentiles do the law (works) because the love of Jesus is written on our hearts.

Wait a minute I need clarification and I think the subject needs it. I'm just trying to keep up, here, with Christians who seem to be in disagreement with each other. You seem to be regarding all Gentiles as loving Jesus, but the Gentiles were non-Jews to whom Paul preached. Some of them became Christians. There were "Jewish Christians" and "Gentile Christians" meaning Christians with and without a Jewish background, but not all Gentiles were Christians.



This difference is essential to Paul's meaning in Romans 2.

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

end quote.

Originally posted by RBHILL
You should ask Rob Bell that one.

If God chose Ghandi than it's God's choice. I don't think there is a magical formula despite the sinners prayer.




Manny

Originally posted by Proper Knob
That's the Christian way though.

No that is Rajk999's way not the Christian way.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont know how God will define a Christian. If God does in fact define a Christian as one with faith and also with works to match his faith, then certainly that Christian can and will escape judgment as God knows them already. That actually accords with certain Bible passages.

If God defines a Christian as one who proclaims his faith and accepts Christ t of sinning will lead them to damnation.

All that is totally wrong according to the Bible.

Thank you for your detailed reply. Please bear with me. I have a question for the "many here", just below, and near the end. I am really hoping for some replies.

Many Christians here think that proclaiming that they accept Christ with their mouth is enough for them to be saved by grace.

Do the many here think this way? Anyone? Or do you think accepting Christ has to be really in the heart, mind, soul, spirit, etc.?

I am saying that their works [in the form of following Christ commandments] is also essential for eternal life.

And I am saying that my understanding of the Bible is that true Christians will do works that are sufficient for salvation; for those judged to be true Christians by God's direct examination of their soul, heart, etc., they aren't "also" essential in the sense of being separately judged. Although they would stand up to a separate judgement.

(Deleting your comments I have no question about.)

What I know for sure and what you seem to be also saying, is that there is an important element of good works which is necessary for eternal life. The faithful must have good works to match their faith. It will be automatic and normal with the true faithful to have good works.

I am saying, with you, that "It will be automatic and normal with the true faithful to have good works." But I say there will be no admissions checklist item "does good works" that will be asked about those deemed true faithful, because they will be deemed true or false faithful by a simple direct look into their heart, soul, etc.

Think about it this way (I know this sounds stupid):

God gets to item 3 on the checklist. It is, "Is Raj a true faithful" and the answer is yes, by direct observation. Then before item 4, it says, "If the answer to item 3 is yes, skip item 4." Item 4 is "Did Raj do sufficient good works?"

It you are a true faithful, God won't need to look at your works and answer item 4.

This seems to trivialize the point, but the point doesn't seem to be trivial to you and others here.

Their lifestyle will leave no doubt to those around them that they have good works as it will be visible for all around to see [although they wont do it just for people to see].

It won't matter a hill of beans what the humans around them see. Maybe that's the whole point of it. The Bible at this point in its nascency was still the site of a debate between those who wanted to be human judges of sinfulness, and those who wanted to leave that to God. But what did Jesus say about that?

Let me stress that the faithful with good works are NOT saved by their good works. They are saved by grace. They are saved by the death of Christ who paid the price [death] for our sins. Grace gives them the eternal life, because without that grace their good works would not give them eternal life. Their good works is proof of their faith, without that proof their faith is dead, a sham and just empty words. Faith and works go hand in hand to those who are truly faithful [God knows who they are as you say].

We agree? Recognizing that mine is a secular approach to the doctrines, at least at this point. I mean to be respectful, as often as I can, but I am not a believer. I suppose I am a gentile. Although I did accept Christ and get baptized, once upon a time. Of course that was in the church of the papists so by some Christian accounts I am out of luck.

On the other hand there are those claiming to be 'true' Christians but whose deeds are contrary to the teachings of Christ, but who claim to be saved by grace. They will certainly have to face judgment.

Presumably God will know that already, at question 3, in my stupid example.

Maybe I should ask you and others here if the fate of false claimants having sufficient good works, will differ from the fate of false claimants with insufficient good works. A third category would be those who are not Christians who don't falsely claim to be.

How people [as opposed to God], define Christians is a totally different story. Apparently many people think that once someone accepts Christ and they are baptised they are a Christian and they ..
- receive the holy spirit
- they are regenerated
- they get eternal life
- they are saved eternally .. ie no amount of sinning will lead them to damnation.

How many people DO think this way? I can see how they'd think people like that WON"T do a damnable amount of sinning, but I am guessing that they'd mostly say that people who accepted Christ and got baptized at some time in their lives, can sin their way out of the salvation that they once had within their grasp. (Edit: Although such sinning would follow a loss of faith.)

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont know how God will define a Christian. If God does in fact define a Christian as one with faith and also with works to match his faith, then certainly that Christian can and will escape judgment as God knows them already. That actually accords with certain Bible passages.

If God defines a Christian as one who proclaims his faith and accepts Christ t of sinning will lead them to damnation.

All that is totally wrong according to the Bible.

Let me stress that the faithful with good works are NOT saved by their good works. They are saved by grace. They are saved by the death of Christ who paid the price [death] for our sins. Grace gives them the eternal life, because without that grace their good works would not give them eternal life.

-------------rajk99---------------------------


Oh my...You can be sooooo tantalizing close to the truth without really grasping it fully! It's like you are chewing on the mint but you haven't quite sunk your teeth into it.

Where you are going astray is the idea that grace paves the way for good works to save us. This is not true. Grace is grace. It does not open the door to salvation and eternal life. It IS eternal life. Good works , righteous living and good character are the EVIDENCE that grace is real and faith is real. But it is always faith that saves by grace. The thief on the cross was not saved by good works because he had none. God did not need to see good works from him in order to give him paradise because he knew that the thief's faith was alive. He knew his heart.

All good works show is evidence of real faith and love. We do good works because God loves us first and has saved us - not so that God will love us. This is the only way love can work because we have to ask ourselves - "why am I doing this good work?" "Am I doing it to get eternal life or doing it out of love? "

Do you not agree that this is a vital question since God commands us to love our neighbour?

I have had "Christians" talking to me in the past and even helping me with things but I always felt they were doing it to get browny points with God rather than out of real care. I didn't feel loved. Love has to be pure and free of ulterior motives. Such good works in order to achieve eternity is not good works out of love but a sham of good works and I feel such good works are as abhorent to me as your happy clappy christians who profess with their mouth but do nothing are to you.

Jesus said only the pure in heart will see God - so our good works have to be free of any compulsion or fear to get saved. They need to be pure acts of love with no ulterior motives.

I feel this kind of " let me score points for heaven with my good works" Christianity is just as much a sham to me as the shallow faith you hate so much.

This is why the NT rebukes BOTH mistakes. Don't you get it yet? The two mistakes are to be happy clappy but not walk the walk - and the other is to think you can earn heaven outside of grace thus turning good works into a points accumulation exercise and pushing love to one side. God wants neither shallow faith NOR legalism

I will join you in disgust for the idea that you can have salvation just by mouthing words that don't mean anything if you will join me in in disgust for the idea that you can do enough good works to make you holy enough to earn eternal life.

Have you anything to say about these issues?

Anything?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Let me stress that the faithful with good works are NOT saved by their good works. They are saved by grace. They are saved by the death of Christ who paid the price [death] for our sins. Grace gives them the eternal life, because without that grace their good works would not give them eternal life.

-------------rajk99---------------------------

...[text shortened]... eternal life.

Have you anything to say about these issues?

Anything?

I agree with you here, well said.
Kelly

Originally posted by JS357
.. God won't need to look at your works ..

This is really a hard question.

First God apparently prejudges certain people and finds them faithful. And that faith is demonstrated by good works. That is clearly stated in the Bible. Those people are headed for eternal life.

But whether or not He will need to look at their works in detail is another matter. Im tempted to lean on the side of him not having to do that.

However there appears to be some sort of hierarchy in the Kingdom of Heaven in which people are placed in certain positions of authority, and that position is dependent on their capabilities and how able they are in the 'works' department. There are several passages which state or imply the above.

Consider this one:

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This passage is saying that Teachers or Preachers who teach Christ commandments will all be in the kingdom of heaven. But there are some preachers who cannot follow Christ commandments and break them - those will be least in the kingdom and teachers who can teach and also DO or FOLLOW Christ's commandments will be great in the kingdom.

It would seem therefore that God would also need to look at works to determine who will be 'least' and who will be 'great' in the kingdom. Certainly being God he will know all this long in advance of the event, as another passage states that we are all predestined to a certain outcome. That further complicates it unfortunately.