poor old hitler

Originally posted by knightmeister
Numerous people have presented, in your various identical threads, an account of free will that is compatible with determinism. It allows us to say that even though Hitler (or whoever) could not have been different, or chosen differently, he still made choice for which he was morally accountable. DOTTY

And how does it allow you to do this? Logically ...[text shortened]... awn in the game of chess called the cosmos.

You would have done exactly the same as he did!

He can be held responsible because he made those choices.

As for "you would have made the same choices he did" - this makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This is also true under your omniscient-god model.DOTTY

And that's where you are wrong. If God just created the universe and left it at that then you would be right. Things would just unfold deterministically and Hitler would be destined to do what he did. However , God didn't just leave it there , he intervened and gave us a way out. I'm sure you can work out who that way out is.

God knows all the choices you will make. You are destined to make those choices.

He knew before he made you all the choices you would ever make.

Does that mean you aren't morally responsible for your choices?

If a determinist should blame the cosmos for Hitler, a libertarian theist should blame god for you.

Originally posted by dottewell
I've answered this. He wasn't unlucky and I don't feel sorry for him. He made terrible choices.

Are you REALLY a determinist? This makes no sense logically at all. The choices he made were programmed by the cosmos. He was destined for all time to mass murder and kill himself. You should feel sorry for him because he was a victim himself of the terrible destiny that the cosmos placed upon him. By saying he wasn't unlucky what do you mean? Are you suggesting that he shaped his own destiny in the sense that he could have done something else?

Do you not realise that in your view , the cosmic dice dealt these cards to him and not to you? In your view , the only thing that separates any of us from being destined to perform heinous crimes is the particular body and culture we are born in. Could you say why you don't feel sorry for him and why you don't think he was unlucky? I really , really don't understand!

Originally posted by dottewell
God knows all the choices you will make. You are destined to make those choices.

He knew before he made you all the choices you would ever make.

Does that mean you aren't morally responsible for your choices?

If a determinist should blame the cosmos for Hitler, a libertarian theist should blame god for you.

God knows all the choices you will make. You are destined to make those choices.

He knew before he made you all the choices you would ever make.

Does that mean you aren't morally responsible for your choices?

If a determinist should blame the cosmos for Hitler, a libertarian theist should blame god for you. DOTTY


Yes ! Yes! YES! You are getting there. You are absolutely right. If this was the way things were then I would not be morally responsible for my choices --God would be responsible instead. However , since I believe that God only knows AFTER we have chosen our choices (his knowledge of our choices being dependent on what we do) then we are not pre-destined. He knows what we have done in the future already , not what we WILL do.

There is also the interesting issue of God taking responsibility for what we do on his shoulders. You are right in a way God should be balmed and held morally responsible. We should punish him in some way , he should take our sins upon himself!!! (sound familiar at all?)

Originally posted by dottewell
He can be held responsible because he made those choices.

As for "you would have made the same choices he did" - this makes no sense whatsoever.

As for "you would have made the same choices he did" - this makes no sense whatsoever.\DOTTY

Of course it makes sense. It's only the blind forces of the cosmos that meant you were born you and not Hitler. Given his life and walking in his shoes(and not yours) you would have done what he did. It can be no other way in determinism. With determinism one is not logically permitted the luxury of saying "if I was him I would have done things differently".

Originally posted by knightmeister
Of course it makes sense. It's only the blind forces of the cosmos that meant you were born you and not Hitler. Given his life and walking in his shoes(and not yours) you would have done what he did.

But you would not be you, you would be Hitler!

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes ! Yes! YES! You are getting there. You are absolutely right. If this was the way things were then I would not be morally responsible for my choices --God would be responsible instead. However , since I believe that God only knows AFTER we have chosen our choices (his knowledge of our choices being dependent on what we do) then we are not pre-destined. He knows what we have done in the future already , not what we WILL do.

Did God know what you would do when he made you? How he knew is irrelevant. If he knew what you would do if he made you and yet still made you then he is morally responsible for your actions.
Also if he has knowledge or your actions by whatever means and that information can be passed into the universe at any time prior to your action then it means that the universe is deterministic in nature and you are pre-destined.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You know hitler's future. Does that logically prove that his actions were determined? Show me how captain sensible!

I'm not an omniscient being. But, if I were, and I knew for certain what he'd do in advance, then he would by definition have to do those things.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Another one who won't address the question! The list is growing!

What question? As far as I can see it, free will is only a problem for those who believe in an omniscient God.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You are right in a way God should be balmed and held morally responsible. We should punish him in some way , he should take our sins upon himself!!! (sound familiar at all?)

So, if we can't help it, and it's God's fault, how can it be "sin"?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Are you REALLY a determinist? This makes no sense logically at all. The choices he made were programmed by the cosmos. He was destined for all time to mass murder and kill himself. You should feel sorry for him because he was a victim himself of the terrible destiny that the cosmos placed upon him. By saying he wasn't unlucky what do you mean? Are yo ...[text shortened]... el sorry for him and why you don't think he was unlucky? I really , really don't understand!

It makes perfect sense. The reason you are struggling is that you continue to assume that for a choice to be free it must be the case that I could have done differently in identical circumstances. This is also why you end up having to characterise the cosmos as something that "makes choices". That's absurd. Human beings make choices. Just not in the (obscure) way you claim.

It's been explained to you several times what a typical compatibilist means by free choice. If you have an argument against this, let's hear it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes ! Yes! YES! You are getting there. You are absolutely right. If this was the way things were then I would not be morally responsible for my choices --God would be responsible instead. However , since I believe that God only knows AFTER we have chosen our choices (his knowledge of our choices being dependent on what we do) then we are not pre-destin ...[text shortened]... hould punish him in some way , he should take our sins upon himself!!! (sound familiar at all?)

Why do you continue to parrot my own phrases and make these cringe-worthy attempts to be "patronising"?

Your post makes no sense, so I'm ignoring it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
As for "you would have made the same choices he did" - this makes no sense whatsoever.\DOTTY

Of course it makes sense. It's only the blind forces of the cosmos that meant you were born you and not Hitler. Given his life and walking in his shoes(and not yours) you would have done what he did.

Are you trying to say that if I was raised like Hitler, thought like Hitler, had the same murderous disregard for human life as Hitler, felt no compassion or remorse as Hitler, was a virulent anti-semitic like Hitler, and - in short - had made the same choices as Hitler, I would be as bad as Hitler?

Well, yes. So what?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Perhaps instead of these hyperbolic scenarios you can just provide an
argument that demonstrates how a deterministic universe obviates
free will.

Nemesio

That should be fairly easy, given:

1. A deterministic universe is one in which all action is an inevitable consequence of antecedent sufficient causes; and
2. Free will is the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Since obviate means to render unnecessary, and numbers one and two from above are contradictory in essence, it goes without saying that number one necessarily makes number two impossible (and vice versa).

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That should be fairly easy, given:

1. A deterministic universe is one in which all action is an inevitable consequence of antecedent sufficient causes; and
2. Free will is the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Since obviate means to render unnecessa ...[text shortened]... it goes without saying that number one necessarily makes number two impossible (and vice versa).

This argument brought to you in part by plagiarizing online dictionaries:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deterministic (American Heritage)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free+will (Random House Unabridged)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obviate (American Heritage)