poor old hitler

Originally posted by twhitehead
So why did Hitler not do that and why if you were born Hitler would you do anything different? What would be the actual change as the thought experiment requires that there be absolutely no difference in circumstances on the second run.
Do you accept that if you did something different then it too would be down to random chance, the very thing you are pretending is so terrible.

It's impossible to say what I might do in hitler's circumstances because unless I have lived his life i cannot judge. I only know my own circumstances and the options afforded to me. However , I would hope that at the point where God offered me the chance to escape the path that I was following I would say yes. I have little idea about how God witnessed to Hitler in his life and how Hitler tuned his back on God , but at some point I would guess he would have had to supress or silence his own conscience and humanity and rationalised what he was doing in some twisted way. That was his choice maybe. A moral choice between supression of the conscience and the witness of christ and his 'destiny'.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's impossible to say what I might do in hitler's circumstances because unless I have lived his life i cannot judge. I only know my own circumstances and the options afforded to me. However , I would hope that at the point where God offered me the chance to escape the path that I was following I would say yes. I have little idea about how God witnes ...[text shortened]... ral choice between supression of the conscience and the witness of christ and his 'destiny'.

So you agree that it would really be all down to random chance. Don't you feel sorry for Hitler and his really bad luck that he did not make the right choice? Aren't you glad that that you were lucky and made the right choice (also by chance)?
How is that different from our view which you have been claiming is terribly distasteful?

Bleak universe if you are a knightmeister isn't it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you agree that it would really be all down to random chance. Don't you feel sorry for Hitler and his really bad luck that he did not make the right choice? Aren't you glad that that you were lucky and made the right choice (also by chance)?
How is that different from our view which you have been claiming is terribly distasteful?

Bleak universe if you are a knightmeister isn't it?

I feel sad that he made the wrong choices but thats as far as it goes...i pray he made peace with God before he killed himself!!!

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you agree that it would really be all down to random chance. Don't you feel sorry for Hitler and his really bad luck that he did not make the right choice? Aren't you glad that that you were lucky and made the right choice (also by chance)?
How is that different from our view which you have been claiming is terribly distasteful?

Bleak universe if you are a knightmeister isn't it?

I have not said it was by chance but by choice. The only reason I was being tentative about saying what I would have done if i were hitler is because we are called not to judge others (because we can't ). I think you misunderstand my position. Given whatever opportunity I had as hitler to choose Gods calling rather than the deterministic destiny offered to me I would have chosen God and not gone on to murder 6 million people. However , I still have no idea exactly what choices were offered hitler.

There's no chance about it . It's the deliberate and conscious act of God through the Holy spirit living amongst men. He comes to us at certain points in our lives and says " are going to choose me?" ---and we then have that choice.

Despite this I still can feel sorry for hitler on a certain level because he was probably dealt a poorer set of cards than me in life. However , God would have known this and judged accordingly.

Originally posted by Jay Joos
I feel sad that he made the wrong choices but thats as far as it goes...i pray he made peace with God before he killed himself!!!

I guess the fact he killed himself meant he may not have done?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have not said it was by chance but by choice. The only reason I was being tentative about saying what I would have done if i were hitler is because we are called not to judge others (because we can't ). I think you misunderstand my position. Given whatever opportunity I had as hitler to choose Gods calling rather than the deterministic destiny offere n points in our lives and says " are going to choose me?" ---and we then have that choice.

What choices were offered to Hitler are irrelevant.
The key issue is that in the thought experiment we stated that you are born as Hitler and all conditions are identical. You say that on run 1. with Hitler as Hitler he chose to murder 6 million Jews and on run 2. with you as Hitler you "would have chosen God". So, since absolutely nothing was changed and yet a different outcome took place, the result is random. It was by chance and not by choice.

Now can you please stop simply denying it and rambling on about your God and Holy spirit and either admit that it is by chance or give a rational argument showing otherwise.

What was different when it was you? But wait, that means your thought experiment was wrong. We specifically stated that nothing was different!


Bleak universe if you are a knightmeister isn't it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I guess the fact he killed himself meant he may not have done?

We will never know....

Originally posted by knightmeister
...I had as hitler to choose Gods calling rather than the deterministic destiny offered to me I would have chosen God and not gone on to murder 6 million people.

But then you wouldn't have been Hitler.

Seriously, why can't you grasp this simple point?

Originally posted by dottewell
But then you wouldn't have been Hitler.

Seriously, why can't you grasp this simple point?

But your point "but then you wouldn't have been hitler" is circular because it presupposes you are right about the universe we live in. What I am suggesting is that given the exact same circumstances I would have chosen differently in the sense that I would have responded to whatever way out God had offered to me. Give me the same shoes to walk in and I could have walked a different path (with God's grace)

Originally posted by twhitehead
What choices were offered to Hitler are irrelevant.
The key issue is that in the thought experiment we stated that you are born as Hitler and [b]all conditions are identical. You say that on run 1. with Hitler as Hitler he chose to murder 6 million Jews and on run 2. with you as Hitler you "would have chosen God". So, since absolutely nothing was cha ...[text shortened]... d that nothing was different!


Bleak universe if you are a knightmeister isn't it?[/b]

You say that on run 1. with Hitler as Hitler he chose to murder 6 million Jews and on run 2. with you as Hitler you "would have chosen God". So, since absolutely nothing was changed and yet a different outcome took place, the result is random. It was by chance and not by choice. WHITEY

The key question here is what does "hitler as hitler" really mean? Let's think about this. Who is hitler? Is he the innocent baby boy brought up by his parents? Is the hitler we know the fulfillment of all his human potential? We know hitler had a creative side and we have all seen him playing with kids on film. Is there another softer , compassionate hitler that was never fulfilled? The potential is there in all human beings to reach a higher goal of enlightenment , humanity , compassion , empathy and reasonable behaviour. This potential did not grow with hitler, the hitler child did not fulfil his human potentiaL . So who is hitler then? What is hitler's real primary identity? Was he destined to be evil? Is there a whole different hitler that we may never know now because of his choices?

You need to think about all this before you talk as if human character is a fixed rigid thing set in stone. Human beings grow and are made but they also have the seed of what is possible in all of us within them. So who is hitler? The answer could be we are all hitler . We are also all ghandi. All of us are capable in the right circumstances of evil or good. We , in the end , become who we choose to become given the cards we are dealt. We become what we are through our choices just as much as chosing what we choose through who we are.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But your point "but then you wouldn't have been hitler" is circular because it presupposes you are right about the universe we live in. What I am suggesting is that given the exact same circumstances I would have chosen differently in the sense that I would have responded to whatever way out God had offered to me. Give me the same shoes to walk in and I could have walked a different path (with God's grace)

But you dont know that you would have as your choice would have been random. And this has nothing to do with what we presuppose about the universe. The situation was that everything be the same whatever the universe happens to be not not to be made of. If you claim that it would be different in some way then it is you who has violated the thought experiment.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The key question here is what does "hitler as hitler" really mean? Let's think about this. Who is hitler? Is he the innocent baby boy brought up by his parents? Is the hitler we know the fulfillment of all his human potential? We know hitler had a creative side and we have all seen him playing with kids on film. Is there another softer , compassionate ...[text shortened]... e what we are through our choices just as much as chosing what we choose through who we are.

Actually, who Hitler is or was is quite irrelevant. We have stated that everything that Hitler was is repeated including all circumstances and at some point he is faced with a decision whether or not to kill 6 million Jews or some such, and you have told us that in our world he would go ahead and kill them and in yours there would be a random chance that he wouldn't. You seem to think that if well called the Hitler in the second run of the experiment then it would affect his choice. You just cant seem to grasp your own concepts!

Originally posted by knightmeister
But your point "but then you wouldn't have been hitler" is circular because it presupposes you are right about the universe we live in. What I am suggesting is that given the exact same circumstances I would have chosen differently in the sense that I would have responded to whatever way out God had offered to me. Give me the same shoes to walk in and I could have walked a different path (with God's grace)

But you are imagining of a case in which you (with your beliefs, mental capacities and history, etc.) are in Hitler's position (i.e. leader of Germany during the 1930s/1940s). This is not "being Hitler". Of course, had you been in Hitler's position, you would have acted differently to him. So would I. That's because we're not crazed racist lunatics.

Hitler chose as he did because of the beliefs he had. And we can hold him morally accountable for those choices, since they were made without coercion.

You do not hold these beliefs. If you did, you would think and act differently to how you actually do.

Originally posted by dottewell
But you are imagining of a case in which you (with your beliefs, mental capacities and history, etc.) are in Hitler's position (i.e. leader of Germany during the 1930s/1940s). This is not "being Hitler". Of course, had you been in Hitler's position, you would have acted differently to him. So would I. That's because we're not crazed racist lu ...[text shortened]... old these beliefs. If you did, you would think and act differently to how you actually do.

However , my experience is that beliefs and the way we arrive at choice is a much more dynnamic process than you suggest. Our beliefs cause our choices but also our choices can lead to changes in beliefs. We also have competing beliefs and sometimes our belief is tested whereby we need to act willfully to hold fast to what we believe to be true. Sometimes we do let go of what we hold to be true or convince ourselves that something is not true when it becomes inconvenient.etc etc etc I could go on but you get the point....

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , my experience is that beliefs and the way we arrive at choice is a much more dynnamic process than you suggest. Our beliefs cause our choices but also our choices can lead to changes in beliefs. We also have competing beliefs and sometimes our belief is tested whereby we need to act willfully to hold fast to what we believe to be true. Someti ...[text shortened]... ing is not true when it becomes inconvenient.etc etc etc I could go on but you get the point....

But all of that is compatible with determinism, when "choice" and "belief" are properly understood.