poor old hitler

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
2. Free will is the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Since obviate means to render unnecessary, and numbers one and two from above are contradictory in essence, it goes without saying that number one necessarily makes number two impossible (and vice versa).

And now I would ask you to define "personal choice" and show how it is not a physical or divine force. (Otherwise 2. is self contradictory).

Originally posted by dottewell
Are you trying to say that if I was raised like Hitler, thought like Hitler, had the same murderous disregard for human life as Hitler, felt no compassion or remorse as Hitler, was a virulent anti-semitic like Hitler, and - in short - had made the same choices as Hitler, I would be as bad as Hitler?

Well, yes. So what?

So you could have been hitler quite easily. What's more it's oure chance that you were not ( I assume) embued by the cosmos with murderous disregard for human life . The fact that you have compassion and would not do not hitler did is not down to you in anyway shape or form. It's just your good fortune that the universe has turned out the way it has. You talk about hitler's choices as if they are choices that you would not have made in the same circumstances , but you would have. Determinist logic I'm afraid. You are not able to say that you would have done any differently to him. Your superior moral character to his is not your doing , it's just the way it is. It's down to fate (in your view). Who are you to judge him as a bad person unless you can say you would have done any differently.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So you could have been hitler quite easily.

But then I wouldn't have been me.

Originally posted by dottewell
But then I wouldn't have been me.

And how lucky you are that you are you and you weren't him!! You would have been a little baby ol' hitler suckling away , oblivious to the nightmare that the universe had in store for you.

Originally posted by knightmeister
However , God didn't just leave it there , he intervened and gave us a way out. I'm sure you can work out who that way out is.

Jesus, right?

Originally posted by knightmeister
And how lucky you are that you are you and you weren't him!!

That's nonsensical in so many ways.

Originally posted by knightmeister
And how lucky you are that you are you and you weren't him!! You would have been a little baby ol' hitler suckling away , oblivious to the nightmare that the universe had in store for you.

Now suppose for a moment that you are talking sense and that you were unlucky enough to have been born Hitler. Then how does your view of free will make you luckier? Please explain where the difference would be.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So you could have been hitler quite easily. What's more it's oure chance that you were not ( I assume) embued by the cosmos with murderous disregard for human life . The fact that you have compassion and would not do not hitler did is not down to you in anyway shape or form. It's just your good fortune that the universe has turned out the way it has. Y ...[text shortened]... you to judge him as a bad person unless you can say you would have done any differently.

So what you are saying is, in effect, that the fact that Hitler did what he did means that people have free will? Or possibly not.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Jesus, right?

Well spotted.

Originally posted by dottewell
That's nonsensical in so many ways.

To me it's a perfectly logical extrapolation of deterministic thinking . It's not my problem that you find it too uncomfortable to think about.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So what you are saying is, in effect, that the fact that Hitler did what he did means that people have free will? Or possibly not.

Possibly not. ! If I were a determinist I would feel that logically I would feel sorry for hitler and sigh with relief that his destiny was not bestowed upon me by the cosmos (or whatever caused his life to be that way) I would also feel sorry for his victims , but I would see no logical reason to feel more sorry for them than him since both are victims of a deterministic universe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Now suppose for a moment that you are talking sense and that you were unlucky enough to have been born Hitler. Then how does your view of free will make you luckier? Please explain where the difference would be.

The difference would be that with God around I've got half a chance of escaping that destiny. God can come to me and say "You can be more than just your constituent parts and charactor. I can change you . You do not have to follow this path , there is another way. I can offer you a power that means you will be capable of breaking the chain of determinism. This is not fated to happen , there is something more on offer if you want it. "

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's not my problem that you find it too uncomfortable to think about.

And it's not my fault you find it too difficult to understand why "you are lucky you are not Hitler!", in the way you meant it, is absurd. Hitler is Hitler; you are you; what would happen if you "became Hitler" and Hitler "became you"? Precisely nothing. The suggestion is empty, meaningless.

To return to the point: Hitler made morally bad choices that I, and hopefully you, would not have made. The compatibilist - even one who believes the universe is governed by strict deterministic laws - is entitled to say this, and to hold Hitler morally responsible for his choices (since they were his, and made without coercion).

Originally posted by knightmeister
Possibly not. ! If I were a determinist I would feel that logically I would feel sorry for hitler and sigh with relief that his destiny was not bestowed upon me by the cosmos (or whatever caused his life to be that way) I would also feel sorry for his victims , but I would see no logical reason to feel more sorry for them than him since both are victims of a deterministic universe.

But the only one who lives in a deterministic universe is the guy who believes in an omnipotent, omniscient, God.

The rest of us base our decisions on an imperfect simulation of reality with finite available data, and try to make good decisions thereafter

Originally posted by knightmeister
The difference would be that with God around I've got half a chance of escaping that destiny. God can come to me and say "You can be more than just your constituent parts and charactor. I can change you . You do not have to follow this path , there is another way. I can offer you a power that means you will be capable of breaking the chain of determinism. This is not fated to happen , there is something more on offer if you want it. "

So why did Hitler not do that and why if you were born Hitler would you do anything different? What would be the actual change as the thought experiment requires that there be absolutely no difference in circumstances on the second run.
Do you accept that if you did something different then it too would be down to random chance, the very thing you are pretending is so terrible.