Question for the Geester

Originally posted by KellyJay
I would also point out even if the message was meant to be symbolic in nature the danger we are being warned about have to be as deadly or what is the point?

When I post to you and you deliberately find another post to reply to to prove that you are still the powerful ignorer, do you get a tingle in your pants?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Did I say it was all literal? Having some symbolic text doesn't mean actual events that are described are not going to occur as written either.

Which is why Kelly I wrote, 'If' your position is that the entire book of Revelation is literal. - You had not been clear on this point.

But by conceding that not all of it is literal, the question still remains why symbolic text necessarily equates as actual events? - Take for example the parables of Jesus. Are we to read about the good Samaritan allegorically, and yet at the same time insist he was an actual person?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
If your position is that the entire book of Revelation is literal and holds no symbolism then you are the first Christian I have encountered who holds such a belief. (I was being gentle with 'the white horse.' There is much more in there that absolutely screams metaphor).

Is this kind of what you mean ?

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him .. and He made it known by SIGNS, ..." (See Rev. 1:1)

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Which is why Kelly I wrote, 'If' your position is that the entire book of Revelation is literal. - You had not been clear on this point.

But by conceding that not all of it is literal, the question still remains why symbolic text necessarily equates as actual events? - Take for example the parables of Jesus. Are we to read about the good Samaritan allegorically, and yet at the same time insist he was an actual person?

I am quite sure Jesus did both that is referred to real events as well as made up parables both when spoken were said to convey a point. Stressing the importance by throwing out Hell or Heaven, salvation or damnation I would suggest what ever He is taking about is very important. This would also be true if God spoke through anyone else to such as John to make a point!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Who is talking about 'at judgment day'? and why do you keep referring to that.
We are talking about the fate of the wicked: eternal torment or eternal destruction.

Backing out of your claim?

Originally posted by sonship

The weight of the evidence is on the side of destruction, death and complete and irreversible annihilation of the wicked and sinful people.

As expected, you DID NOT answer the questions.
The questions will not go away. They should be answered by someone calling others fools and idiots for taking the Scripture at its word.


[quote] ...[text shortened]... eply here also with "sicko" silence and "sicko" evasion and "sicko" apathy or "sicko" twisting ?

The first death is physical death, the death of the body. The second death is spiritual death, the death of the soul.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am quite sure Jesus did both that is referred to real events as well as made up parables both when spoken were said to convey a point. Stressing the importance by throwing out Hell or Heaven, salvation or damnation I would suggest what ever He is taking about is very important. This would also be true if God spoke through anyone else to such as John to make a point!

My point exactly sir.

Metaphor can be a tool to 'convey a point' without being tied down to real events. The parable of the good Samaritan is no less powerful due to being just a parable, rather than an actual account of a real event.

I would place the 'lake of fire' in this metaphorical understanding, especially coming from a book full of metaphor. I'm still unclear why you would not do the same.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
My point exactly sir.

Metaphor can be a tool to 'convey a point' without being tied down to real events. The parable of the good Samaritan is no less powerful due to being just a parable, rather than an actual account of a real event.

I would place the 'lake of fire' in this metaphorical understanding, especially coming from a book full of metaphor. I'm still unclear why you would not do the same.

True you are correct but that doesn't mean the events talked about there are not true.

Adding this:
Since you do not believe in God how do you measure or come up with what is real and
true and what isn't in scripture?

Do you believe God is everywhere is real?
Do you believe God sees ever thing is real?
Do you believe God anything?
Since the basics are outside of your scope of what could be what and how do you view
anything in scripture as nothing but hogwash?

Originally posted by Suzianne
The first death is physical death, the death of the body. The second death is spiritual death, the death of the soul.

The first death is physical death, the death of the body. The second death is spiritual death, the death of the soul.

Their whole being - spirit, soul, and body perish. Why would I say that this punishment involves both the material part and the immaterial part? For one reason - Jesus said BOTH soul and body could be thrown by God into Gehenna fire.

Matthew 10:28 -

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul;

but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna."

Here Jesus did not say ONLY the soul could be destroyed in Gehenna. But He said "BOTH" the soul and body could. This is one reason why I am reluctant to teach that only the soul suffers in that final punishment.

Death means separation not annihilation.

The first death - the soul is separated from the body.
The second death - the soul and body are separated forever from God.

When Revelation 20:12 says John saw the dead standing to be judged, it must be the dead resurrected. Then for those who do not have their name recorded in the Lamb's book of life must mean that their resurrected body and soul and spirit are all cast into the lake of fire.

We are told of a resurrection followed by punishment -

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all which are in the tombs will hear His voice.

And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)

The phrase - "the resurrection of judgment" must include the event spoken of in Revelation 20:12 where the dead stand before the great white throne to be judged by Christ.

I would not disagree that "the second death" is a spiritual death. But in this "spiritual death" apparently Jesus said "BOTH ... soul and body" are involved.

Suzianne, we also see that the ones thrown into the lake of fire which is defined as the second death are not only spiritual as "the devil" but physical as Antichrist and his false prophet. And they actually go in physically alive it appears:

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet,.. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone." (See Rev. 19:20)

Please notice that it says they were cast in how? ... " ALIVE " .

So their spiritual part of immaterial and their material part united together were cast "alive" into the second death. And they are forever separated from God.

Originally posted by KellyJay
True you are correct but that doesn't mean the events talked about there are not true.

Do you believe that everything in the bible is literal?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Backing out of your claim?

No .. you dunce. I never said anything about judgment day in my claim.

I said :

The weight of the evidence is on the side of destruction, death and complete and irreversible annihilation of the wicked and sinful people. For every verse you quote where people are tormented, there are a dozen which state that they are destroyed .. NOT that they will continue to exist in torment.

Originally posted by Rajk999
No .. you dunce. I never said anything about judgment day in my claim.

I said :

The weight of the evidence is on the side of destruction, death and complete and irreversible annihilation of the wicked and sinful people. For every verse you quote where people are tormented, there are a dozen which state that they are destroyed .. NOT that they will continue to exist in torment.

Do you have a positive reason to call me a dunce as you did when you called me a fool or
are you just being your normal nasty self?

Originally posted by Rajk999
No .. you dunce. I never said anything about judgment day in my claim.

I said :

The weight of the evidence is on the side of destruction, death and complete and irreversible annihilation of the wicked and sinful people. For every verse you quote where people are tormented, there are a dozen which state that they are destroyed .. NOT that they will continue to exist in torment.

Destruction to you means death and complete irreversible annihilation? How is it you come
by that? Cities can be destroyed, that does not mean irreversible annihilation so how do you
come up with that?

Originally posted by Suzianne
The first death is physical death, the death of the body. The second death is spiritual death, the death of the soul.

Revelation 21:
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

You think here the soul dies?

Originally posted by sonship
Anyone tired of the name calling of Rajk999 as fool and idiot, i request you immediately please place a request to the moderators that he be adjusted.

I am doing so right now.

Just so you know, when you were repeatedly calling me a liar and "diseased", and such like, a couple of months ago, I didn't alert any of your posts.