Rajk999 - Jesus said we must believe

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's see.

I quote Jesus.

You ignore the words of Jesus and accuse me of "trying to subdue the Lord Jesus".

And you quote Paul to prop up your position.

Fascinating.

Do you believe the words of Jesus that you quote?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Let's see.

I quote Jesus.

Yes, you may quote Jesus as long as it is not anything about His redemptive death and victorious resurrection. Sure, you quote Jesus when it props up a miracle-less Humanism which is essentially self improvement and quite close to Agnosticism or even Atheism.

Sure, you quote Jesus as long as Jesus seems to be saying what your Humanist philosophy teaches.

You ignore the words of Jesus and accuse me of "trying to subdue the Lord Jesus".

Yes. The way you do not let the Bible rise above you is also the way you will not come under the Lordship of Christ - Whom I am pretty sure you have believed is not here to BE Lord. And why ? Because He no more "walks the earth."

Right?

And you quote Paul to prop up your position.

Fascinating.

Fascinating? Well Jesus did say that the apostles would do greater things then He would do. Now this "greater things" are "greater" according to God's estimation of what is great.

So you don't seriously expect us to ignore all the "heads up" Jesus gave us about what His apostles would do to carry on His ministry ?

So yes, I quote Christ's continued operation through the words of His apostles, including Paul.

Actually, what you are attempting to do is take the place of His apostles as the best interpreter of Christ's ministry. You're trying to take the PLACE of Peter, John, Paul and the other New Testament writers.

False humility aside, you are really trying to establish your "ministry" as more reliable an understanding of Jesus Christ, then His apostles.

Originally posted by Rajk999
That woman is such a damn fool. Its no wonder Chaney3 likes her, They are two idiots.

Do you recall the words Jesus spoke about calling someone a fool? Or do you only choose the words you like?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Do you recall the words Jesus spoke about calling someone a fool? Or do you only choose the words you like?

I bet Jesus thinks she is a fool as well. Jesus called a whole lot of people fools in the bible .. those people around here who believe that lip service and mouth worship will get them in the Kingdom of God are all fools.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Jesus clearly said we must believe, and you are still in denial if you deny that. If you will admit that we can move on and discuss exactly what it is we need to believe.

The dictionary defines "believe" as "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof".

Did Jesus say we should believe? Yes nor No? Answer the question before we move on.

Yes Jesus said to believe, and Jesus specified what belief entailed, and it has nothing to do with what you stated here

You believe that Jesus died for your sins on the cross
and that you receive forgiveness through His death on the cross.
You trust Him that He will work in you
to enable you to do His will
and that he will change you to be more and more like Him.

So you need to show where Jesus said that first.
If it is the case that Paul said it then say so.
So far you are stalling because what you have done is tell me your church doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I bet Jesus thinks she is a fool as well. Jesus called a whole lot of people fools in the bible .. those people around here who believe that lip service and mouth worship will get them in the Kingdom of God are all fools.

Jesus said that anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be subject to the fire of hell. Jesus has the right to call someone a fool, you don't.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Jesus said that anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be subject to the fire of hell. Jesus has the right to call someone a fool, you don't.

Ok.. let me deal with that. Focus on the reason why you started this thread. Or are you still stalling?

Originally posted by Rajk999

So you need to show where Jesus said that first.
If it is the case that Paul said it then say so.
So far you are stalling because what you have done is tell me your church doctrine.

Before Paul lived it and taught it Jesus taught it.

" I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman ... Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself neither can you unless you abide in Me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (See John 15:1-9)

Everything we do apart from abiding in Jesus will amount to "nothing". That is nothing towards the accomplishing of God's will.

As He lived by the Father, He also expected us to live by and through Him.

"As the living Father sent Me and I live by the Father, so he who eats Me shall also live because of Me." (John 6:57)

Concerning His resurrection state, it is the very source of the believers' living.

" Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19)

Originally posted by sonship

So you need to show where Jesus said that first.
If it is the case that Paul said it then say so.
So far you are stalling because what you have done is tell me your church doctrine.

Before Paul lived it and taught it Jesus taught it.

[b] " I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman ... Abide in Me and I in you. As t ...[text shortened]... e no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19)

[/b]

Are you addressing the point here, which is that dj2becker said this:

You believe that Jesus died for your sins on the cross
and that you receive forgiveness through His death on the cross.
You trust Him that He will work in you
to enable you to do His will
and that he will change you to be more and more like Him.

And he claims that Jesus or Paul said that this is what to believe in Christ means.

Can provide some references?

Originally posted by Rajk999

to enable you to do His will
and that he will change you to be more and more like Him.

And he claims that Jesus or Paul said that this is what to believe in Christ means.

Can provide some references?

I just did provide references that I would use.

What do you think it means for Jesus to say "apart from Me you can do nothing?" (v.5)

The healthy life of the True Vine dispenses its enabling ability into the abiding branches.
This is exactly to the point of Jesus Christ enabling us and conforming us to be like Him.

And the redemption is implied in His words in the same portion:

"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." (v.3)

The rest is about the divine and rich life of Christ as the True Vine flowing into the abiding branches to do the will of God, glorify the Father, and become like Him.

The first step in ABIDING in Christ is the SEE... to SEE ... to SEE that by believing in Him we are IN HIM already. We are indeed branches in the True Vine.

To learn to abide in Christ we have to first see that we are put into Christ as a branch is grafted to a healthy and rich tree or vine.

The Christian is not struggling to GET IN. The Christian must see that she is IN HIM just as a branch is connected to a vine. Standing on this revelation we then learn to ABIDE in Christ.

And of course "eating" Christ that we may live by Christ is much of the same truth.
You are what you eat.
We need to take INTO us the living resurrected available Christ to LIVE because of Him.

Originally posted by sonship

Let's see.

I quote Jesus.

Yes, you may quote Jesus as long as it is not anything about His redemptive death and victorious resurrection. Sure, you quote Jesus when it props up a miracle-less Humanism which is essentially self improvement and quite close to Agnosticism or even Atheism.

Sure, you quote Jesus as long as Jesus seems to ...[text shortened]... establish your "ministry" as more reliable an understanding of Jesus Christ, then His apostles.

Try considering what is written as a whole. This entails understanding the relationships between the sentences.

You keep addressing individual sentences as if there are no relationships between them. As such, you fail to understand both nuance and higher level meanings.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Try considering what is written as a whole. This entails understanding the relationships between the sentences.

You keep addressing individual sentences as if there are no relationships between them. As such, you fail to understand both nuance and higher level meanings.

Try considering what is written as a whole.

How do I know that your "considering as a whole" simply means considering what agrees with your "whole" philosophy ?

"Considering as a whole" sounds very good.
But I suspect that it means your "whole" preconceived presuppositions which you bring TO the New Testament as cherished baggage.

This entails understanding the relationships between the sentences.

I learned things from the Bible gradually. I experienced God. Obedience leads to more understanding. More obedience opened up even more insight.

I understand something of the New Testament because I experienced its center - Christ.

I also asked God early in my spiritual journey to put me with Christians who could help me and not discourage me. I looked around and saw that there were religious people who harmed my faith and discouraged it. I asked God to put me in touch with those Christian brothers who could help my faith rather than discourage my faith.

God was faithful to answer that prayer.
He was more faithful than I was.

You need to experience Christ some in order to get into much of the Bible.
No, it is not all only about great reading comprehension skills.

It is also about being faithful to what God gives you so that He will give you some more.

You keep addressing individual sentences as if there are no relationships between them. As such, you fail to understand both nuance and higher level meanings.

You have to learn to read the lines first. Then you can read between the lines.

You seem reluctant to really come out and say what you do not believe in the writing.
You seem to want to dress sheer unbelief into something more sophisticated.

Why not call a spade a spade?
There is much you simply don't believe. That's all.

Why posture it up into something more existential than naked unbelief ?

You talk about Jesus as He walked on earth.
What about Jesus as He walked on water ?

You don't believe it, plain and simple. Right?

Originally posted by sonship

Try considering what is written as a whole.

How do I know that your "considering as a whole" simply means considering what agrees with your "whole" philosophy ?

"Considering as a whole" sounds very good.
But I suspect that it means your "whole" preconceived presuppositions which you bring TO the New Testament as cherished b ...[text shortened]...
What about Jesus as He walked on water ?

You don't believe it, plain and simple. Right?

Focus jaywill. Are you focused?

You not only don't read scripture in context. you don't read what others write on this forum in context. In doing so, you fail to understand what is being said. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you - especially if there is nuance and/or higher level meaning involved.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Focus jaywill. Are you focused?

You not only don't read scripture in context. you don't read what others write on this forum in context. In doing so, you fail to understand what is being said. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion with you - especially if there is nuance and/or higher level meaning involved.

Focus yourself.

After Jesus rose from the dead, He still walked on earth for some time.

FOCUS.
Yes or No?

If your answer is "No, Jesus did not walk the earth after His crucifixion" then have the honesty to admit that you just cannot believe that part of the Gospels.

I may miss some posters' points sometimes. I know that.
Sorry, there is only so much mileage you're going to get out of that.

Overplaying it is getting old and rather weak.

Your favorite aces of spades in John 8 and in First John 3 I have examined in fuller context.

Your Ezekiel challenge I have never addressed yet.
I think a lot of your "context" is simply the "context" of your philosophy that you wish to dignify with the Person of Jesus Christ.

Are you attempting to hijack the New Testament to be some Humanist Manifesto ?

Originally posted by sonship
Focus yourself.

After Jesus rose from the dead, He still walked on earth for some time.

FOCUS.
Yes or No?

If your answer is "No, Jesus did not walk the earth after His crucifixion" then have the honesty to admit that you just cannot believe that part of the Gospels.

I may miss some posters' points sometimes. I know that.
So ...[text shortened]... us Christ.

Are you attempting to hijack the New Testament to be some Humanist Manifesto ?

I may miss some posters points sometimes. I know that.

You miss much more than you are aware. Think about it jaywill. If you were aware of all the points that you miss, then you wouldn't be missing them.

It's even really difficult to for anyone to point out the points that you're missing because you often fail to understand exactly what they're pointing out.

It's a real problem.