@kellyjay saidThese snippets of dogma that you have recited don't make torturing people in burning flames for eternity morally coherent. Don't waffle about whether or not you are "happy about it". Make a moral case for such stupendous, vengeful violence.
It is not something that I happy about, but I believe it's true. If the truth can only be found in what is pleasing to us, why hasn't cancer, wars, rapes, murder, and things of that nature disappeared? There are no reasons to excuse the punishment for sin on the bases of; we don't like the idea of it.
@kellyjay saidThe problem you have, fortunately, is that you are not in any way believable on this matter.
It is not something that I happy about, but I believe it's true.
Mostly because the notion of a loving omnipotent God not being able to save billions of people more than those he can save from this eternity of burning torture, which is inflicted by himself I might add, ...is utterly ludicrous abhorrent nonsense.
@kellyjay saidI'm not excusing anything. I'm pointing out that "Good, omnipotent being" and "eternal torture" existing in the same reality leads to inherent, irreconcilable contradiction. Therefore, your God is either the most evil being in existence or not omnipotent.
It is not something that I happy about, but I believe it's true. If the truth can only be found in what is pleasing to us, why hasn't cancer, wars, rapes, murder, and things of that nature disappeared? There are no reasons to excuse the punishment for sin on the bases of; we don't like the idea of it.
@vartiovuori saidThe torturer God ideology is only "evil" and/or morally incoherent on a hypothetical level because it is nothing more than misanthropic, narcissistic nonsense; there is no reason whatsoever to think that it's real.
This is proof that Christians are the most evil people on earth.
It is just stuff sloshing around noxiously in KellyJay's [and others] superstitious thoughts.
It simply means that his moral compass is completely broken - in so far as he bases it on the supposed wishes of a vengeful, angry, hateful torturer God figure - and, if KellyJay is able to function as a moral person, then it is because of his conscience, and DESPITE subscribing to such an inexplicable vile doctrine - which comprises thing s like people being burned [tortured] in flames for eternity for calling someone a fool.
I don't think KellyJay is "evil". I think the extent to which he has the faculty to use his moral compass is the same as mine, and I am a non-Christian.
Of course, he'll never admit it because it would put the complete dampeners on all this rote-learned duckspeak doctrine he hacks out here day in day out.
@vartiovuori saidHardly, all of God's attributes must be in play. You are looking at one ignoring the others. Why would justice be ignored if someone who does evil refuses to seek out God and repent, be allowed into the eternal Kingdom, why would that be an irreconcilable contradiction?
I'm not excusing anything. I'm pointing out that "Good, omnipotent being" and "eternal torture" existing in the same reality leads to inherent, irreconcilable contradiction. Therefore, your God is either the most evil being in existence or not omnipotent.
Justice and Holiness must be satisfied just like Love and Mercy and Truth; none of them can be left wanting in anything God does. So when He created us, it could have been done but one way, and that was with us having to be able to refuse or accept truth, love, and so on. Therefore the possibility had to be real, or not at all, even though it was going to be difficult and evil was doing to be possible. The very first commandment to us was to avoid that tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So yes, He had to have known, and He was willing to pay the price Himself for all the sin that was done, doing this to redeem us all, and many still reject Him because they love their sins and want to stay in them.
The fact that He is going to judge and render a verdict would be wrong: why? All involved are eternal and all the evil and wickedness must be dealt with eternally least; it remains and spoils the eternal Kingdom that isn't going to be temporary? The very One who paid for our every sin is going to be our judge, and as our lives, our choices, our deeds, our words that we have done come out into the open for all to see, it will be just and right. You want to push the crimes we have done on God, and call God evil instead of accepting and taking responsibilities for your sins, that is up to you.
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidYes, but why is being burned in flames for eternity the appropriate or proportionate punishment, morally speaking? Why would your God figure torment someone in burning flames for eternity as a punishment for calling someone a fool. Don't just answer with a spammy recital of stuff that sometimes even you can't make sense of, try making a moral argument.
Hardly, all of God's attributes must be in play. You are looking at one ignoring the others. Why would justice be ignored if someone who does evil refuses to seek out God and repent, be allowed into the eternal Kingdom, why would that be an irreconcilable contradiction?
Justice and Holiness must be satisfied just like Love and Mercy and Truth; none of them can be left wan ...[text shortened]... and call God evil instead of accepting and taking responsibilities for your sins, that is up to you.
@kellyjay saidWhy would the only alternatives be "being allowed into the eternal kingdom" and eternal torture? For that matter. eternal torture for crimes that are finite in nature is inherently unjust, therefore justice is being ignored regardless. There's nothing "just" about anything you speak of
Hardly, all of God's attributes must be in play. You are looking at one ignoring the others. Why would justice be ignored if someone who does evil refuses to seek out God and repent, be allowed into the eternal Kingdom, why would that be an irreconcilable contradiction?
Justice and Holiness must be satisfied just like Love and Mercy and Truth; none of them can be left wan ...[text shortened]... and call God evil instead of accepting and taking responsibilities for your sins, that is up to you.
You're also ignoring one defining attribute of your God: Omnipotence. You're speaking of "must" and God HAVING to do things in a certain way, which surely means that he cannot be omnipotent.
19 Feb 20
2 edits
KellyJay,
Millions and millions of humans have died in a great deal more pain and suffering than Jesus did. The Romans probably executed 100s of 1,000s of people just for a start and often left them to suffer for a long, long time. Was Jesus' suffering for a few hours comparable to someone being tortured for all eternity in burning flames? How do you calibrate and evaluate how "just" Jesus' revenge supposedly is?
19 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidThere was no alternative; Hell was created for the devil and his angels when they rebelled, and those who also gave themselves to evil and wickedness will join them, our choices have real consequences. God is only going to do what is right and just and true, so when He created us to be in His image, then we were made in His image. He didn't make us partly in His image, to be mindless robots but living beings able to choose. The very good we are aware of shows us that there is evil, and what you are doing is pushing our evil upon God instead of accepting what we have done as our guilt before a good God.
Why would the only alternatives be "being allowed into the eternal kingdom" and eternal torture? For that matter. eternal torture for crimes that are finite in nature is inherently unjust, therefore justice is being ignored regardless. There's nothing "just" about anything you speak of
You're also ignoring one defining attribute of your God: Omnipotence. You're speakin ...[text shortened]... must" and God HAVING to do things in a certain way, which surely means that he cannot be omnipotent.
19 Feb 20
@fmf saidI don't think your moral compass is able to do this. Because of the nasty torturer God ideology you subscribe to, I think your moral compass is flawed, or perhaps simply broken, at least in this regard. You declare such ludicrous things about "justice", I think your religious beliefs have deprived you of a means of evaluating it. All you can do, apparently, is duckspeak about it, while freezing out attempts to discuss it with you.
KellyJay,
How do you calibrate and evaluate how "just" Jesus' revenge supposedly is?
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay said"No alternative"
There was no alternative; Hell was created for the devil and his angels when they rebelled, and those who also gave themselves to evil and wickedness will join them, our choices have real consequences. God is only going to do what is right and just and true, so when He created us to be in His image, then we were made in His image. He didn't make us partly in His image, to be ...[text shortened]... is pushing our evil upon God instead of accepting what we have done as our guilt before a good God.
So God isn't omnipotent, then?
19 Feb 20
1 edit
@kellyjay saidBut why is being burned in flames for eternity the appropriate or proportionate punishment, morally speaking? Why do you refer to it as "just" and "justice"? You don't seem to have the courage to discuss this issue.
There was no alternative; Hell was created for the devil and his angels when they rebelled, and those who also gave themselves to evil and wickedness will join them, our choices have real consequences. God is only going to do what is right and just and true, so when He created us to be in His image, then we were made in His image. He didn't make us partly in His image, to be ...[text shortened]... is pushing our evil upon God instead of accepting what we have done as our guilt before a good God.
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidExplain, if you will, why there is "no alternative" for your God figure ~ when someone who calls someone else a fool ~ except to torture them for eternity in burning flames?
those who also gave themselves to evil and wickedness will join them, our choices have real consequences.
19 Feb 20
@vartiovuori saidGod is good, perfectly so! Therefore He will never do anything that would diminish His goodness. God is just, perfectly so! Therefore He will never do anything that would lessen His justice. God is love, merciful, and so on! Therefore everything He does will also be in perfect harmony with these and all of His attributes always!
"No alternative"
So God isn't omnipotent, then?
So when confronted with us sinners, His solution was taking our sins punishment upon Himself at the cross, satisfying everything utterly in our justification. In Him, it's all good, and outside of Him, all the debts remain.
19 Feb 20
@kellyjay saidBut clearly He is neither good, nor just.
God is good, perfectly so! Therefore He will never do anything that would diminish His goodness. God is just, perfectly so! Therefore He will never do anything that would lessen His justice. God is love, merciful, and so on! Therefore everything He does will also be in perfect harmony with these and all of His attributes always!
So when confronted with us sinners, His sol ...[text shortened]... thing utterly in our justification. In Him, it's all good, and outside of Him, all the debts remain.