Salvation

Originally posted by Rajk999
Why did Jesus come?

Here is the story:
- Adam sinned
- the wages of sin is death
- sin therefore fell on all of Adams descendants

You cant just bandy about the word "therefore" without some justification! 😠

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You cant just bandy about the word "therefore" without some justification! 😠

My apologies. I thought I was addressing Christians only. Here is the explanation:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Rom 5:12-14)

Originally posted by KellyJay
So Christ died for just what we were unaware of, and what happens if you sin after you
become a believer? Are you then guilty and on your way to Hell? I do not discredit the
statement by Paul, but I don't think it means what you are suggesting. I'd like to hear what
you do with sins that were done after you become a believer.

Also what version are you ...[text shortened]... n a few translations text centers on those
who go on sinning, not just committing a single sin.

Did I not answer the question ..what you do with sins that were done after you become a believer.?

I quoted from the KJV. Of course everyone will have their own interpretation. I am just repeating what the Bible has, and there are several passages along those lines.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did I not answer the question ..what you do with sins that were done after you become a believer.?

I quoted from the KJV. Of course everyone will have their own interpretation. I am just repeating what the Bible has, and there are several passages along those lines.

I don't understand it than, can you explain it to me?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't understand it than, can you explain it to me?

This I said : So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth

Christ it seems dealt with the first two. Thereafter there are consequences. Of course there is room for forgiveness and repentance, but the Bible says clearly that cannot go in indefinitely.

Sins committed after receiving Christ is dealt with by repenting and asking for forgiveness.

Is that difficult to understand?

Originally posted by Rajk999
This I said : [i]So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth

Christ it seems dealt with the first two. Thereafter there are consequences. Of course there is room for forgiveness and repentance, but the B ...[text shortened]... rist is dealt with by repenting and asking for forgiveness.

Is that difficult to understand?

Thank you for repeating yourself, I get what you mean now.

I do think we see this differently, but I don't have time to go into it now.
Thanks for your input however!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Why did Jesus come?

Here is the story:
- Adam sinned
- the wages of sin is death
- sin therefore fell on all of Adams descendants
- without a blood sacrifice nobody would get eternal life
- God sent Christ to die for the sins of the world [PAST SINS]
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his ...[text shortened]... th the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1Jn 5:3-4)

So is it your position that we are saved through the blood of Christ or are we saved by merely following his commands?

Naturally, I think we have the capacity to follow his commands but I also acknowledge that we have all at some time violated his commands. Do you agree?

So what to do with the violated commands i.e. sin? Do we need the blood of the Lamb to wash them away or can our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds?

Originally posted by whodey
So is it your position that we are saved through the blood of Christ or are we saved by merely following his commands?

Naturally, I think we have the capacity to follow his commands but I also acknowledge that we have all at some time violated his commands. Do you agree?

So what to do with the violated commands i.e. sin? Do we need the blood of the Lamb to wash them away or can our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds?

If you are serious about getting eternal life in the Kingdom of God you will do what Jesus said .. its along these lines and its all over the NT teachings :

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: ... (John 14:23-24)

The rest of your questions were answered in the past couple pages of this thread.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This I said : [i]So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth

Christ it seems dealt with the first two. Thereafter there are consequences. Of course there is room for forgiveness and repentance, but the B ...[text shortened]... rist is dealt with by repenting and asking for forgiveness.

Is that difficult to understand?

I'm about to start looking up scripture so I can present it to you, but I do have a question for
what you wrote that doesn't really make sense to me as you explained it after giving it a
little thought.

You said,"
Originally posted by Rajk999
This I said : So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- our past sins before we received a knowledge of the truth
- our sins after we received a knowledge of the truth


If Christ only dealt with just the first two where did this provision for forgiveness and
repentance come from? You are pointing out that it does have limits, it will not go on
indefinitely so is it something we can trust, something we can rely on? After all if it is
limited and will not go on how trustworthy is it? It seems to me that if we cannot trust
what we need to be forgiven, that somewhere out there is a number of sins if we hit it we
are doomed, what kind of foundation for our lives is that?

Is this number of sins we may hit something that we could do in a day, a week, a year?
How does that work?

This is important stuff, if someone who loves the Lord, has His Spirit, has given His life
to God through Jesus can hit a specific number of sins then s/he gets cast away how
that number is reached becomes very important don't you think? On top of that I've seen
you quote scripture that talks about we also on top of avoid sinning, we also need to be
doing good works, how many of those are required?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm about to start looking up scripture so I can present it to you, but I do have a question for
what you wrote that doesn't really make sense to me as you explained it after giving it a
little thought.

You said,"
Originally posted by Rajk999
[b]This I said : So there are several types of sins:
- inherited sin ie the sin in the flesh
- ou ...[text shortened]... o on top of avoid sinning, we also need to be
doing good works, how many of those are required?

Let me be frank with you. Your questions are rather foolish.

I quoted the Bible where it is stated in very simple language that Christ died for PAST SINS, and if you have knowledge of the truth and you sin wilfully thereafter, there is no more sacrifice for sins

The first step in getting at the truth is to accept what Christ and the Apostles said.

Are there other passages that contradict what I quoted? Please provide a reference if there are.

Did I not answer already that forgiveness and repentance comes after ? God will forgive if the person deserves forgiveness.

What is this foolishness about number of sins and number of good deeds per week .. what rubbish?!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Let me be frank with you. Your questions are rather foolish.

I quoted the Bible where it is stated in very simple language that Christ died for PAST SINS, and if you have knowledge of the truth and you sin wilfully thereafter, there is no more sacrifice for sins

The first step in getting at the truth is to accept what Christ and the Apostles said.

A ...[text shortened]... hat is this foolishness about number of sins and number of good deeds per week .. what rubbish?!

These are real questions about something very important, foolish is not the word I would
use. Christ died for just our past sins, is something I have only seen you come up with,
it is not something I see in scripture. So I am trying to figure out how you make these
questions workout. If we can go to God for forgiveness and repentance after we come to
the knowledge of God, then where is this past sins only statement you are going on about
really coming into play?

If we can ask for forgiveness afterwards, than we can ask God for forgiveness afterwards!
That seems straightforward to me, it isn't just past sins as you are going on about, but
those we do later too if we go to God asking for forgiveness and repentance.

Is there a place where God says no more, yes. Is it going to be for a sin, or is it going to
be for someone who makes a claim with their mouths yet loves their sin and stays in it?
Anyone who does not pick up their crosses and follows Jesus, Jesus said was unworthy
of Him. There are more than a few warnings in scripture about people who are told to
repent and turn towards God, if they refuse they will die in their sins.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Let me be frank with you. Your questions are rather foolish.

I quoted the Bible where it is stated in very simple language that Christ died for PAST SINS, and if you have knowledge of the truth and you sin wilfully thereafter, there is no more sacrifice for sins

The first step in getting at the truth is to accept what Christ and the Apostles said.

A ...[text shortened]... hat is this foolishness about number of sins and number of good deeds per week .. what rubbish?!

"God will forgive if the person deserves forgiveness. "

Who among us deserves forgiveness? Scripture tells us Jesus died for us while we were
sinners, no one deserves forgiveness, we are all sinners before a Holy God.

Originally posted by KellyJay
.. Christ died for just [b] our past sins, is something I have only seen you come up with, it is not something I see in scripture. ..[/b]

Something I come up with?? Not something you see in scripture? Did you read the Bible?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

AND

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:26-29)

Paul said that. Did you read it? Peter said something similar. So did John. Christ was all about refraining from sin. Its all over the NT.

I will repeat it for your sake:
1. Paul said Christ died for the remissions of SINS THAT ARE PAST
2. Paul also said that if you continue to sin after receiving a knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice for sins.
3. That to continue to sin after accepting Christ is a putting Christ to shame and it is like trodding Christ underfoot

There is a clear distinction made among several types of sins. There is:
- sin in the flesh or the sin inherited from Adam
- there are past sins
- there is future sins that can be forgiven
- there is future sins that will not be forgiven

Peter said it like this:

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2Pe 2:20-21)

Peter says the end result of continuing in sin is worse that if you did not know Christ in the first place .. that cannot be good at all. Very very bad situation to be in.

Anyway Im tired of repeating the same thing. It seems that you are too indoctrinated in church dogma to appreciate what the Bible really says.

Dont ask me about the amount of sins or amount of good works etc etc.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Something I come up with?? Not something you see in scripture? Did you read the Bible?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of [b]sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

AND

[i] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received ...[text shortened]... the Bible really says.

Dont ask me about the amount of sins or amount of good works etc etc.[/b]

You miss understand my point, I understand that there are sins in our past that isn’t what
I was referring too. When I think about sin it is not past, future, and the unforgiveable. I
think of those that are done in word, thought, and deed the way they are done, or as bad
sometimes those we do not do that we should have. Your distinction about Jesus only
died for sins that we were made aware of at the time of our salvation is new to me.

The unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and the scripture reference for
that also has Jesus saying that people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy.
Please note that Jesus did not say they will be forgiven only for those that they became
aware of at the time of their salvation which is what you are suggesting.
(Matthew 12:31-32)

I guess after talking to you I’m becoming to think you are really all about us being good
enough for the Kingdom of God. You practically said as much when you suggested only
the worthy would be forgiven. As I read the scriptures I’ve come to the conclusion that
only the guilty need ask for God’s grace since Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners.

Where you and I agree I believe, feel free to correct me that there are those that have no
intention of following Jesus Christ, they love their sin, they will find every excuse to keep
doing them, and if they are convicted by the word of God they will turn away from it and
forget what type of people they really are and go on living their lives as sinners without
ever turning towards God. They may have received the knowledge of the truth in their
lives, but put it out of their minds to the point that they reject God’s call on their lives.

Where you and I differ is those that actually do come to God through Jesus Christ, and
are fighting the good fight. They cannot earn their way to God’s good favor as you claim
through good works, they are sinners and they know it. They go to God, ask for
forgiveness and repent, they are still fighting against sin but when they are walking in the
Spirit of God they are not sinning, if they walk in the flesh … well in our flesh is not a good
thing it is at odds with what the Spirit of God wants.

I submit to you we can never be good enough to earn God’s favor, we are only righteous
through Jesus Christ. As we abide in Him, and His word abides in us we are right with
God, as we follow the Spirit of God doing the works of God we do well. When we are
doing all the right things this doesn't make us good enough, at that point we are just very
simply doing what we were supposed to do, it isn't going above and beyond.


Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Something I come up with?? Not something you see in scripture? Did you read the Bible?

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of [b]sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

AND

[i] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received ...[text shortened]... the Bible really says.

Dont ask me about the amount of sins or amount of good works etc etc.[/b]

"Dont ask me about the amount of sins or amount of good works etc etc."

I can see why you'd want to avoid one of your major points of your doctrine since there is
no Biblical number.