Salvation

Originally posted by sonship
John chapter 3 shows a man must receive a new life.
To be born again is the commencement of that new life.

John chapter 3 shows even a very educated and good man like Nicodemus, a "victor of the people" as his name would mean, a ruler of the Jews, must be born again.

He must not only be born again but must be terminated by the reality of baptism - b ...[text shortened]... ill needed to be terminated, buried with Christ and born again to enter into the kingdom of God.

Is there any kind of 'human effort' that is required to be :
- born of water
- born of the spirit?

A simple to-the-point and concise answer would be nice but that may be asking too much.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Is there any kind of 'human effort' that is required to be :
- born of water
- born of the spirit?

A simple to-the-point and concise answer would be nice but that may be asking too much.

Yes, we have to cooperate.

" God is at work in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

There is COOPERATION. But God gives the birth and God gives the growth in life (1 Cor. 3:7).

And though KellyJay's utterance may be different from mine, I think he probably would agree with what I said here.

CO - OPERATION with the operating God is the way of salvation.

Originally posted by sonship
Yes, we have to cooperate.

" God is at work in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure" [b](Phil. 2:13).

There is COOPERATION. But God gives the birth and God gives the growth in life (1 Cor. 3:7).

And though KellyJay's utterance may be different from mine, I think he probably would agree with what I said here.

CO - OPERATION with the operating God is the way of salvation.[/b]

Good.. thanks. Now can you expand on what exactly is means to cooperate?
I will start with what I think it means as our interpretations may diverge at this point.

Using the same John 3 .. Jesus explains the significance of the born again process .. two types - of water and of the spirit. Christ continues later - Men are likely to be condemned becasue they do not cooperate with God and Jesus says:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Joh 3:18-21)

Jesus is identifying two kinds of people here.
1. those that believe in Him- lovers of truth and light, those that do good things, these love Christ.
2. those that do not believe in Him - they love evil, their deeds are evil, they hate light, hate Christ, hate to be corrected.

Clearly again there is a whole lot of 'human effort' going on here. .. ie it takes a lot of human effort to cooperate with God's plan or requirements.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Clearly again there is a whole lot of 'human effort' going on here. .. ie it takes a lot of human effort to cooperate with God's plan or requirements.
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There is first believing.
And after that there is more believing.

As I wrote before, the follower of Jesus never graduates from faith. He never outgrows the need to believe in Christ.

This is why John underlines that point by recording how Jesus said the work of God was to believe in Him whom God sent.

" Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God ?

Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28,29)

This believing in Christ should not be limited to initially receiving Him. But it is ongoing of faith in Him to live Him. The cooperation is first believing into Him.

What do you think the phrase "grace upon grace" means in John 1:16 .

For of His fullness we have al received, and grace upon grace." (v.16)

I think it means we start our Christian journey by receiving grace through faith. Then we continue receiving grace. That is more grace to live. That is "grace upon grace".

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Clearly again there is a whole lot of 'human effort' going on here. .. ie it takes a lot of human effort to cooperate with God's plan or requirements.
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There is first believing.
And after that there is more believing.

As I wrote before, the follower of J ...[text shortened]... Then we continue receiving grace. That is more grace to live. That is "grace upon grace".[/b]

Well thanks for your opinion there. However according to Jesus himself, there are several categories of believers who hears the word of God.. The parable of the sower explains :

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

1. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

2. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

3. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

4. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luk 8:11-15)

Four classes of people that hear the word of God.
1. Those that hear but dont believe
2. Those that hear, believe and fall away thereafter
3. Those that hear, believe but produce no fruit
4. Those that hear, believe and produce fruit.

Obviously to hear is not good enough, neither is believing good enough. Producing fruit is what is required after believing .. not more believing. Producing fruit = producing good works and following commandments. Only category 4 will be in Gods Kingdom. Unfruitful believers are those that do nothing except claim to believe. In John 15, Jesus explains the fate of unfruitful believers... - they will be destroyed.

According to your doctrine all will be in Gods Kingdom except Cat 1. Cat 2, 3 and 4 all are believers and all will be eternally saved. Christ disagrees with you however.

As for John 1:16 several translations renders the wording: Because of all that the Son is, we have been given one blessing after another. (Joh 1:16) Grace is just another word for blessings from God. To sit there as a believer in Christ and just ask for blessing after blessing without producing fruit is just asking for damnation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I read those related passages already. What I think is the downfall of some is that they claim that in John 6 Christ was speaking of the bread and wine [as flesh and blood] used to remember his death and resurrection as a symbolic event which many churches practice. They they claim is that very important symbolic even that Christ speaks of. However it is clear that Christ is referring to his commandments and doctrine as his flesh and blood.

I had no doubt that you had already read those passages. From what I can tell, you are the only one on this forum who truly seeks to understand the words of Jesus. Seems like everyone else works really hard to avoid addressing what He actually says. Then somehow they accuse YOU of ignoring His words. It's pathetic.

Since you cited John 6:63, I figured you understood that when Jesus speaks of flesh and blood, he is really speaking of His words. .

With that in mind and what Jesus says in John 8:31-36 about those who continue in His word being freed of committing sin, Matthew 26:26-28 takes on a whole new light.

Matthew 26
26While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; 28for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.

What's also interesting is the meaning of the word translated as 'forgiveness' in Matthew 26:28 literally means 'freedom'.

So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [freedom of] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8:31-36 about those who continue in His word being freed of committing sin. It's marvelous how the interrelationships between John 6:26-63, John 8:31-36 and Matthew 26:26-28 line up.

This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death. Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death which hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You realize there are more verses in scripture than just those right?

Of course I realize that there are more verses.

Is really so unreasonable to ask you to let Jesus' words speak for themselves. To ask you what they actually say?

The only reason that I pared those three passages down to two verses in the first place, is because you've been doing everything in your power to avoid doing so.

Jesus speaks of the "spirit of truth". I'm only asking you to shine the light of truth on what He actually said.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Of course I realize that there are more verses.

Is really so unreasonable to ask you to let Jesus' words speak for themselves. To ask you what they actually say?

The only reason that I pared those three passages down to two verses in the first place, is because you've been doing everything in your power to avoid doing so.

Jesus speaks of the "spirit of truth". I'm only asking you to shine the light of truth on what He actually said.

I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you
want the way things are. In doing that, works do not justify us before God, Jesus does.
We will do works in Christ, that is what we are called to do, but Jesus not our works is
what cleans us of our sins.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you
want the way things are. In doing that, works do not justify us before God, Jesus does.
We will do works in Christ, that is what we are called to do, but Jesus not our works is
what cleans us of our sins.

I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you want the way things are.

C'mon KJ. Since we started this discussion I've referenced over TWENTY verses by my count and can reference many more if need be to make my case. For that matter, as I pointed out in my last post to you, I only pared it down to TWO verses because of your ongoing refusal to directly address what Jesus actually says.

I understand that you're committed to your dogma. If you choose to ignore what Jesus actually says when it goes against your dogma, that's your prerogative. But for you to instead mischaracterize our discussion by claiming that I've only referenced ONE verse is exceedingly dishonest on your part.

"The truth will make you free"

"Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you want the way things are.

C'mon KJ. Since we started this discussion I've referenced over TWENTY verses by my count and can reference many more if need be to make my case. For that matter, as I pointed out in my last post to you, I only pared it down to TW ...[text shortened]... st on your part.

"The truth will make you free"

"Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."[/b]

Nothing you have given me shows me that works make me clean before God, while I have
show you over and over that Jesus does. We will be doing works, that is not what we are
talking about, of course we will. I submit to you that we will be following Jesus' commands
too, that too is not in debate.

Where the discussion is, what makes me clean before God, the answer to that is Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you want the way things are.

C'mon KJ. Since we started this discussion I've referenced over TWENTY verses by my count and can reference many more if need be to make my case. For that matter, as I pointed out in my last post to you, I only pared it down to TW ...[text shortened]... st on your part.

"The truth will make you free"

"Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."[/b]

ThinkOfOne, I am not sure what your position is regarding 'works', 'sin', and 'salvation'. You are a Christian, but....forgive me, I cannot determine what exactly you are getting at with your posts. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, and makes an effort to live a life that Jesus would want us to live.......we would STILL fall very, very short of that.

What is the concern for works here? All humans are sinners, and all humans fall short of a God like life. We may try.....but, we will always fail. I am confused by your posts and the posts of Rak regarding this subject.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Nothing you have given me shows me that works make me clean before God, while I have
show you over and over that Jesus does. We will be doing works, that is not what we are
talking about, of course we will. I submit to you that we will be following Jesus' commands
too, that too is not in debate.

Where the discussion is, what makes me clean before God, the answer to that is Jesus.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen not to address the dishonesty of your prior post.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Good.. thanks. Now can you expand on what exactly is means to cooperate?
I will start with what I think it means as our interpretations may diverge at this point.

Using the same John 3 .. Jesus explains the significance of the born again process .. two types - of water and of the spirit. Christ continues later - Men are likely to be condemned becasue t ...[text shortened]... oing on here. .. ie it takes a lot of human effort to cooperate with God's plan or requirements.

"Jesus is identifying two kinds of people here.
1. those that believe in Him- lovers of truth and light, those that do good things, these love Christ.
2. those that do not believe in Him - they love evil, their deeds are evil, they hate light, hate Christ, hate to be corrected."

You are adding to scripture here putting in your spin to make it seem like there is more
to those verses than are actually there. Jesus was speaking about those that believe in
him and those that do not, you are adding your spin on what people do twisting the
meaning to fit your views not accepting the scripture as is.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's unfortunate that you've chosen not to address the dishonesty of your prior post.

You had to go there, show me where I'm dishonest.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You had to go there, show me where I'm dishonest.

I pointed out your dishonesty in my second to last post to you.