Salvation

Originally posted by KellyJay
"Jesus is identifying two kinds of people here.
1. those that believe in Him- lovers of truth and light, those that do good things, these love Christ.
2. those that do not believe in Him - they love evil, their deeds are evil, they hate light, hate Christ, hate to be corrected."

You are adding to scripture here putting in your spin to make it seem like ...[text shortened]... pin on what people do twisting the
meaning to fit your views not accepting the scripture as is.

Actually you are very wrong. It is very easy to prove that there are two kinds of belief faith

1 Belief or faith with ones mouth only. - this faith is useless
2. Believing with ones heart which transforms the person and leads to a desire to follow Christ and His commandments - this the kind Christ is interested in.

Let me know if you want references.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually you are very wrong. It is very easy to prove that there are two kinds of belief faith

1 Belief or faith with ones mouth only. - this faith is useless
2. Believing with ones heart which transforms the person and leads to a desire to follow Christ and His commandments - this the kind Christ is interested in.

Let me know if you want references.

Who here is preaching about faith that is mouth only? You maybe the only one I know!
Your other is purely man made too, God is the one who does the work in us. You do seem
to be all about human effort even when it comes to the work God does in us.

God calls us, God starts a work in us, it is all about God's efforts. We are called to come
and obey, abiding in Him, keeping His Word in us, doing the works He has for us. God is
also able to complete the Work He starts in us.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
C'mon KJ, it's my third post on Page 12 by my count. The one where I respond to where you said the following:
"I think you have to look at all scripture, and not just pull one verse out to make what you want the way things are."

How is that post NOT clear?

Make the point, I'm not going to go looking through posts to find something I'm telling you
is not there.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Who here is preaching about faith that is mouth only? You maybe the only one I know!
Your other is purely man made too, God is the one who does the work in us. You do seem
to be all about human effort even when it comes to the work God does in us.

God calls us, God starts a work in us, it is all about God's efforts. We are called to come
and obey, abi ...[text shortened]... rd in us, doing the works He has for us. God is
also able to complete the Work He starts in us.

Human effort, along with Gods guidance and strength .. BOTH lead to eternal life. Sitting there and waiting for God to do everything is a recipe for failure.

It is not all about Gods efforts. Clearly you do not understand the teachings of Jesus .. who apparently you 'know' so well.

I asked sonship about this claim that no 'human effort' is required and he ran away from the disucssion without answering. Do you care the repond? See page 12 for what Christ said about the Sower and the Seed.

Originally posted by KellyJay
.. God is also able to complete the Work He starts in us.

You [like Checkbaiter] continually post stuff straight out of a church website. That kind of teaching is designed for mass appeal, and for people who dont care to think for themselves. They just want to hear that they have eternal life and there is nothing to do.. great doctrine .. your churches full up with people who want to hear that nonsense teaching.... but its the road to damnation.

You say .... God is also able to complete the Work He starts in us. If that were true and no human effort is needed, then all the passages along these lines would not be required. God and Christ sets the stage for a believer to start WORK, Doing, obeying, following etc are REQUIRED. Some will fail and some will succeed.

In the parable of the Sower and the Seed , Jesus says that very clearly.

1. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

2. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:26-29)

3. .. if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Heb 10:38)

4. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [2Pe 2:20-21)

Originally posted by Rajk999
Human effort, along with Gods guidance and strength .. BOTH lead to eternal life. Sitting there and waiting for God to do everything is a recipe for failure.

It is not all about Gods efforts. Clearly you do not understand the teachings of Jesus .. who apparently you 'know' so well.

I asked sonship about this claim that no 'human effort' is required and ...[text shortened]... swering. Do you care the repond? See page 12 for what Christ said about the Sower and the Seed.

You avoid our justification is through Christ and instead push justification through human
effort. Our part is to obey the Lord so it isn't like there is nothing about our walk! We are to
draw close to the Lord, but God calls us, we answer, He commands we obey. The thing is
we trust our righteousness in Him so we can walk with Him.

If you have something to ask about the seed and sower ask....If you want to have an
in pact on the world I suggest you follow Jesus Christ instead of suggesting we get right
with God through works without Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You [like Checkbaiter] continually post stuff straight out of a church website. That kind of teaching is designed for mass appeal, and for people who dont care to think for themselves. They just want to hear that they have eternal life and there is nothing to do.. great doctrine .. your churches full up with people who want to hear that nonsense teaching.... ...[text shortened]... ey have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [2Pe 2:20-21)[/quote]

If you have someone who walks in their sin instead of with Jesus Christ they will find
themselves outside of God's grace. I've never denied this, what you are suggesting is that
anyone who believes in Jesus Christ will not turn towards God and obey Him. You and
Satan have a lot in common on that point, but that doesn't change that as we abide in
Him and His Word in us, as we get to know Him and follow Him our justification is Jesus
and we will be doing the works of God.

Originally posted by whodey
All other religions, from what I can assess, put us on a scale. God weighs the good and the bad as we hope the good outweighs the bad.

Christianity is the only religion I know not geared toward this measure. A lowly guilty theif hanging on a cross can attain salvation in the blink of an eye.

True religion in the Veda's does not do what you are suggesting.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well, I put the teachings of Christ ie His commandments first, and Paul's teachings must fall in line with that, otherwise I tell myself that I am misinterpreting what Paul said. Apparently you follow a similar mo. Doing that helps me sleep at night 🙂. I dont how how Christians sleep knowing that Christ said one thing and they believe another ... strange p ...[text shortened]... ing, is that following his commandments makes one free from sin .. and that makes perfect sense.

From what I can tell, what we have most in common is that we both seek truth and to understand the words of Jesus when He walked the Earth. In my mind, these are of the most importance.

As far as Paul goes, when I read his words I see a politician speaking out both sides of his mouth. Paul (and anyone else for that matter), at best, can only exactly echo the concepts introduced by the words of Jesus, everything else can only deviate from them to whatever extent. From what I can tell, all the "false doctrine" that you speak of, have their seeds in deviations found in the words of those other than Jesus. After all, it is the words of Jesus that "are spirit and are life", it is the words of Jesus that are "the way and the truth and the life", etc. Not the words of anyone else.

Seems like a major stumbling block with the "false doctrine" is that for many it has become firmly entrenched as dogma. For them, it has become incontrovertible. It is this dogma that keeps them from being able to let Jesus' words speak for themselves - from being able to "hear" the words of Jesus for what they actually say. When they are presented with Jesus' words and asked to directly address what they actually say, out come the perfunctory recitations of this dogma, the false accusations, the misrepresentations of your position and all the other nonsense that you see.

What's interesting is that the scribes, Pharisees and others firmly entrenched in dogma built from false doctrine, were also unable to understand Jesus' words.

John 8
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Make the point, I'm not going to go looking through posts to find something I'm telling you
is not there.

Listen KJ, the post is still there - exactly where I told you to find it. If you want to claim that it isn't there, that's your prerogative, but it isn't true. I've already TWICE directed you to where you can find my post. I see no reason to continue to cater your petulance.

Let's recap how this went downhill. I posted the following:

KJ, I'm asking you to let Jesus' words speak for themselves. To look at what they actually say.

Those verses do not say "that we are saved by grace
through faith not of works least any of us be able to boast about it." Agreed?

Those verses do not say that you should not " trust in human effort that is on you for your salvation." Agreed?

So what do His words actually say?

Your response in its entirety was this snide question:

You realize there are more verses in scripture than just those right?

Since then you made a statement trying to make it sound like the entirety of my position was based on one verse and followed it with more and more nonsense. It's ridiculous.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From what I can tell, what we have most in common is that we both seek truth and to understand the words of Jesus when He walked the Earth. In my mind, these are of the most importance.

As far as Paul goes, when I read his words I see a politician speaking out both sides of his mouth. Paul (and anyone else for that matter), at best, can only exactly e ...[text shortened]... liar and the father of lies. 45“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
[/quote]

Church dogma is a hell of a dangerous thing. I was suffering from its influence, for the early part of my life. teens and early twenties.To get out of it you have to physical leave the church and start over. Its a long process but definitely worth it. Takes a lot of effort, you make a pile of enemies and you have to leave friends and family behind and move on.

My take on Paul is that you have to take all that he says and marry it to what Christ says. The false doctrines that comes out of Romans for example is a result of taking only specific statements Paul made to the church in Rome and using that to form doctrines. If you gather all that Paul said about both faith and works in all the letters to all the churches, you can see how it is closely related to what Christ said.

Better yet if the words of Paul, Peter, James and John were all taken together .. it is equivalent to what Christ preached.

I feel pity for those bogged down by church influences when these are contrary to what Christ preached. Its a difficult place to be.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Listen KJ, the post is still there - exactly where I told you to find it. If you want to claim that it isn't there, that's your prerogative, but it isn't true. I've already TWICE directed you to where you can find my post. I see no reason to continue to cater your petulance.

Let's recap how this went downhill. I posted the following:
[quote]KJ, I'm as ...[text shortened]... my position was based on one verse and followed it with more and more nonsense. It's ridiculous.

There is nothing I've said that goes against what Jesus said, or anyone who wrote
scripture. On top of that there is nothing I've said that I've been dishonest about.

As I pointed out to you all scripture has to be taken in, If you only want to speak of those
things Jesus said we can look at just them, but you will be putting blinders on from what
God has done. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, and those that God calls who God
has given his Spirit also speak from their perspective with God in them.

ACTS 15:
“Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Romans 10:
1 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is nothing I've said that goes against what Jesus said, or anyone who wrote
scripture. On top of that there is nothing I've said that I've been dishonest about.

As I pointed out to you all scripture has to be taken in, If you only want to speak of those
things Jesus said we can look at just them, but you will be putting blinders on from what
God ...[text shortened]... 4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

How does the 'no human effort' part fit into the teachings of Christ.
You said its all about what God does.
If that is the case then how can a Christian go astray or fall away.
If they do then its Gods fault?
How does that work?

Originally posted by Rajk999
How does the 'no human effort' part fit into the teachings of Christ.
You said its all about what God does.
If that is the case then how can a Christian go astray or fall away.
If they do then its Gods fault?
How does that work?

Did you see this scripture? If you are working for your salvation you are seeking to setup
your own and have not submitted to God's. God gives us His grace and we follow Him
then. If God says this is the way we need to do things, than that is the way we need to do
them. Our efforts for God's grace is simply accepting the gift of God, and moving to God
afterwards that so that we follow and obey Him.

🙂 I guess it is hard for you to avoid this discussion. Please don't take that as a slam I'm
always glad to talk with you.

Romans 10
3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Originally posted by Rajk999
How does the 'no human effort' part fit into the teachings of Christ.
You said its all about what God does.
If that is the case then how can a Christian go astray or fall away.
If they do then its Gods fault?
How does that work?

If you are Abiding in Christ and His Word is abiding in you, you are walking with God.
If you avoid Christ for a life of sin, you will not be abiding in Christ and sin is your master.