Salvation

Originally posted by sonship

Dogma of any kind is a dangerous thing. Dogma that serves as the foundation for ones core beliefs (like church dogma) is especially dangerous. They are extremely protective of it even to the point of delusion. As such, it in effect "blinds" people to the truth. Think Jesus understood this?

ThinkIfOne,

I would still like to know ...[text shortened]... ed in this danger ?

Or are all such independent free lance thinkers without dangerous dogma ?

Hopefully my previous responses cover what you've posted here.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Hopefully my previous responses cover what you've posted here.

Sometihng doesn't jump out at me about "the golden rule" question. But I'll read what you wrote again.

In these years I have noticed that you are very fond of John 8:34-36. Does that passage form a crucial dogma in your theology ?

"Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever.

If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed."

I think you are very fond of that passage.
Do you have an interpretation of it that you hold as a major dogma for you ?

Originally posted by sonship
Sometihng doesn't jump out at me about "the golden rule" question. But I'll read what you wrote again.

In these years I have noticed that you are very fond of [b]John 8:34-36. Does that passage form a crucial dogma in your theology ?

[quote] "Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

And ...[text shortened]... d of that passage.
Do you have an interpretation of it that you hold as a major dogma for you ?

Actually it's usually from John 8:31 through 36.

I'm fond of it because it's deep and profound.

By and large, the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth hold are coherent and John 8:31-36 is a part of it.

I'm willing to put all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Actually it's usually from John 8:31 through 36.

I'm fond of it because it's deep and profound.

By and large, the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth hold are coherent and John 8:31-36 is a part of it.

I'm willing to put all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny.

What I hear you saying is that John 8:31-36 is something of a dogma to you but you are open minded to change your concept about it.

I don't suggest you need to.
But I hope such a willing attitude would include receiving the living, resurrected and available Lord Jesus into your heart.

And I do not mean sentimentally.
I mean actually Christ can be received into your very being.

Now THAT is the true eternal changing of the mind.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Was there some "miscommunication"? Perhaps. But there's no denying your propensity for deceit.

[b]If you continue this we can end all conversations from this point forward up to you.

Hope you can find a way to be honest with yourself, so that you can also be honest with others. Until that time, that's fine with me.

Toward that end, I suggest ...[text shortened]... n page 10 and follow the thread of that discussion through to as least my third post on page 12.[/b]

I don't mind having conversations with people I can disagree with them, they can disagree
with me. If we have an issue understanding each other we can work through it, but you are
not doing any of that, you just want to insult me. So unless you change your approach we
are done, I don't mind discussing issues, but being called names and being belittled is not
a conversation worth having in my opinion. Wish you well, but we are done till you wish to
talk verses insult.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't mind having conversations with people I can disagree with them, they can disagree
with me. If we have an issue understanding each other we can work through it, but you are
not doing any of that, you just want to insult me. So unless you change your approach we
are done, I don't mind discussing issues, but being called names and being belittled is ...[text shortened]... worth having in my opinion. Wish you well, but we are done till you wish to
talk verses insult.

Was there some "miscommunication"? Perhaps. But there's no denying your propensity for deceit.

Hope you can find a way to be honest with yourself, so that you can also be honest with others. Until that time, that's fine with me.

Toward that end, I suggest you read through our discussion that begins with my first post on page 10 and follow the thread of that discussion through to as least my third post on page 12.

Originally posted by sonship

Actually it's usually from John 8:31 through 36.

I'm fond of it because it's deep and profound.

By and large, the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth hold are coherent and John 8:31-36 is a part of it.

I'm willing to put all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny.

What I ...[text shortened]... be received into your very being.

Now THAT is the true eternal changing of the mind.

What I hear you saying is that John 8:31-36 is something of a dogma to you but you are open minded to change your concept about it.

Actually what I was trying to say is that it isn't dogma to me because "I'm willing to put [ALL] all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny."

Dogma often serve to 'blind' people. When faced with something that threatens their dogma, people will sometimes begin acting irrationally. For example, instead of actually addressing it, they might instead recite their dogma or make false accusations or begin behaving dishonestly in other ways or whatever it takes to avoid it. It's dangerous.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Actually what I was trying to say is that it isn't dogma to me because "I'm willing to put [ALL] all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see. You spoke of Jesus walking on the earth and, I think. having an earthly ministry.

What came as a surprise to me was that this unusual Person is alive and available. You know the resurrection is a foundational truth teaching of Jesus.

Without it the follower of His teaching has nothing.
If He is not risen, not alive, not available to us, albeit in a supernatural way, we are left with nothing. Paul said without Christ having been raised from the dead, we Christians have a vain faith and are to be pitied above all people.

"And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is vain; your faith is vain also.

And also we are found to be false witnesses of God because we have testified concerning God that He raised Christ, ..." (1 Cor. 15:14,15a)

If God did not raised Jesus from the dead then that is a total show stopper. If so, I am a liar along with the New Testament. And my faith is a useless thing and vain.

It is more than a matter of having a correct dogma.
It is a matter of having or not having a living Person come into you.

Today in resurrection and in exaltation this Jesus has a heavenly ministry. He had an earthly ministry. Then He has a continuation of ministry from the heavens.

Here it says so:

"Now in the things which are being said the chief point is this:

We have such a High Priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens. A Minister of the holy places, even of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man." (Hebrews 8:1,2)

This present living Minister is a High Priest ministering the Holy Spirit into men's hearts and women's hearts. He ministers Himself into those who come forward to Him for cleansing from all sins and to receive God as their Father - the Lord Jesus as their Savior.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Says the guy who posted the following to Dasa on page 15 of this very thread:

Sir, you are dishonest in your accusations of dishonesty.

Honest.

Your toll-like behavior has been well documented on the "Ephesians 2:8-9" thread. Shouldn't take long for most to understand what you're about.

From what I've seen, you've only made three posts on this thread and each of them to 'stir the pot'. It's what trolls do.

Yes, thought you might dig up the comment to Dasa. (As that's all you had to muster).

Dasa constantly calls people dishonest who do not agree with him. Many have challenged him on this, but he continues to do so. In exasperation i stated publicly that until he stops calling people dishonest, i would call his dishonest in return. Perhaps you missed that. - It is not a word i use against anyone else. That would be impolite.

Trolls have a propensity to insult people. In this thread (and the Ephesians thread) only you continue to do that. Some self reflection is perhaps required.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Actually what I was trying to say is that it isn't dogma to me because "I'm willing to put [ALL] all my beliefs under the light of truth and alter them if they don't hold up to scrutiny."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see. You spoke of Jesus walking on the earth and, I think. having an earthly mi ...[text shortened]... for cleansing from all sins and to receive God as their Father - the Lord Jesus as their Savior.[/b]

I just posted this another thread, but it seems appropriate to post it here as well:

While Jesus walked the Earth:

Jesus taught what is and is not righteous.

Jesus taught what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom"

Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Yes, thought you might dig up the comment to Dasa. (As that's all you had to muster).

Dasa constantly calls people dishonest who do not agree with him. Many have challenged him on this, but he continues to do so. In exasperation i stated publicly that until he stops calling people dishonest, i would call his dishonest in return. Perhaps you missed ...[text shortened]... nd the Ephesians thread) only you continue to do that. Some self reflection is perhaps required.

Your toll-like behavior has been well documented on the "Ephesians 2:8-9" thread. Shouldn't take long for most to understand what you're about.

From what I've seen, you've only made three posts on this thread and each of them to 'stir the pot'. It's what trolls do.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree".

Okay, I understand you. Now are you saying:

1.) A Christian should seek transformation ?

Or

2.) One not transformed is NOT a Christian ?

Which one of these two bullet points better represents your thought ?

A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin.

Okay, understand you.

Which of these two options better represents you thought.

1.) During the process of transformation one is not a son of God or a Christian or participating in eternal life or the kingdom of God. IE. until COMPLETION of transformation no one has the right to say they are a son of God.

Or

2.) A Christian should seek transformation, maturity, deeper participation in God's kingdom and deeper enjoyment of this eternal life.


In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. I got it. And I agree. One MUST be completely sanctified, conformed, transformed, for the fulfillment of God's will and Christ's desire.

A couple of questions:

1.) Is therefore the apostle Paul against the teaching of Christ to write to the Galatians (who obviously still had some problems )

" For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:26)

Would you ThingOfOne take the Apostle aside and say, IE.

"No Paul, You are teaching contrary to what Jesus taught. They are NOT sons of God simply because of faith in Christ Jesus."

2.) When Jesus referred to His disciples as more than friends but BROTHERS was He wrong ?

" Jesus said to her [in His resurrection] .. I have not yet ascended to My Father;

but go to My brothers and say to them. I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." (See John 20:17)

Had you been there would you stop and correct Jesus by saying, IE.

"No Jesus. You are wrong! These still doubting and troublesome sinful men are not sons of God yet and therefore cannot be your "BROTHERS". You are contradicting Your own teaching because they could not be YOUR BROTHERS with YOUR FATHER until they are completely transformed."

Comments ?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your toll-like behavior has been well documented on the "Ephesians 2:8-9" thread. Shouldn't take long for most to understand what you're about.

From what I've seen, you've only made three posts on this thread and each of them to 'stir the pot'. It's what trolls do.

Seriously dude, do you ever win an argument? The Ephesian's thread was just plain embarrassing for you. Your whole gusto was about me being confused by a poster and then trying to conceal that confusion, a gusto shown to be a nonsense by the poster confirming i had answered him perfectly well.

I'm content to watch you flounder like a beached halibut, .

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree".

Okay, I understand you. Now are you saying:

1.) A Christian should seek transformation ? ...[text shortened]... uld not be YOUR BROTHERS with YOUR FATHER until they are completely transformed."

Comments ?

Looks like you're not sure about the following paragraph:

Jesus taught that ultimately what is required for "eternal life" / "the kingdom" is transformation into a righteous being: from a "slave" to a "son", from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit", from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". A "son" no longer commits sin, one "born of the spirit" no longer commits sin, a "good tree" no longer commits sin. In short, one must become one with God as He was one with God. One must become a son of God as he was a son of God.

Hopefully the following will make things more clear.

Jesus used three different metaphors to express the same concepts. There are two points that need to be understood from these metaphors. Let's take them one point at a time.

One point that needs to be understood is that in these metaphors, Jesus speaks in strict dichotomy:

1) One is either a "good tree" or a "bad tree" and one's fruit is either all "good" or all "bad".
Matthew 7
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

2) One is either a "slave" or a "son". Everyone who commits sin is a "slave". Everyone else is a "son".
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

3) One has been "born of the spirit" or one hasn't.
John 3
6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Similarly one is EITHER righteous or not righteous. One is not righteous until one has completely transformed. The righteous do not commit sin.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Seriously dude, do you ever win an argument? The Ephesian's thread was just plain embarrassing for you. Your whole gusto was about me being confused by a poster and then trying to conceal that confusion, a gusto shown to be a nonsense by the poster confirming i had answered him perfectly well.

I'm content to watch you flounder like a beached halibut, .

Seems that GoaD cannot help himself and continues to troll - continues to make my point.

As I said:

Your toll-like behavior has been well documented on the "Ephesians 2:8-9" thread. Shouldn't take long for most to understand what you're about.

From what I've seen, you've only made three posts on this thread and each of them to 'stir the pot'. It's what trolls do.