Spirituality
15 Sep 15
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14 Oct 15
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Originally posted by Captain StrangeLet me help you out.
I get mixed up with sonhouse and sonship
Sonship is the one that Jesus loved and shed His blood on the cross for that he would be saved.
Sonhouse is the one whom Jesus died for to give him eternal life and whom Jesus loved and came to save.
Do you see the difference now ?
Originally posted by sonshipYou know jaywill, it's becoming increasingly evident that you aren't taking the time to understand the words to which you are responding. Rather it seems you've chosen the tactic of attacking indiscriminately.
[b] The first thing that needs to be understood is who abides in Jesus' love. In John 15:10, Jesus clearly states that one must KEEP His commandments to abide in His love. And not just KEEP His commandments, but KEEP them as He KEPT His Father's commandments (which is perfectly).
------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... tle attack against the incarnation, the redemptive death, and the resurrection.
Cont. below[/b]
You really need to focus on understanding the underlying concepts that are being presented.
If you doubt the above, then you need to take a hard look at the following from your post to me:
If however, what hides behind your teaching is a rational not have assurance of Christ's indwelling then I am sorry to say, that would be like a wolf in sheep's clothing teaching.
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So you want to talk about "hiding". Okay. I consider that you are hiding very much. What do you hide? I am pretty sure that you hide that you do not take the 27 books of the New Testament as God's oracles. Though you keep this close to the vest, concealing your rejection of the apostles, your hiding is detected.
If you want to play hardball with me, I'll oblige you,
Your teaching come across as that of "a wolf in sheep's clothing."
It's clear that all you've done is pick out a couple of phrases from the text in bold and attacked them without regard to what the sentence is conveying.
You've taken exception to the word "hides" and went on a little rant about it.
You've taken exception to the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing teaching" and went on a little rant about it.
The most fascinating parts are where you got your back up and wrote "So you want to talk about 'hiding'" and "If you want to play hardball with me, I'll oblige you". What a tough guy.
One little problem. I DIDN'T WRITE THE TEXT IN BOLD.
Not only didn't I write that sentence, but from what I can tell, the underlying concept being presented lines up with YOUR position rather than mine.
In fact, I spot checked the last few pages and I couldn't find the text anywhere. Insofar as I can tell, YOU WROTE THE TEXT IN BOLD.
So from what I can tell, you wrote a sentence directed at me, got confused and responded as if I wrote it. You took exception to your own words. You got all tough with your own words.
Now if you'd taken the time to understand the words to which you were responding you probably would have caught your error and you could have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment.
So, if you think you can start taking the time to understand the underlying concepts that are being presented, I'll respond to the rest of your last couple of posts. Are you willing to do that?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI can miss someone's point at times. This is true.
But my custom has been lately to put in bold with an underline the part of the other poster's words I am addressing.
So I am not sure what your complaint is about me bolding your words. I am just highlighting a distinction between what you wrote and what I am writing. Nothing more is meant in the bolding.
One hundred percent consistency in my style is not there.
I will go back and re-comment on your post if I can understand your thought.
Now I will back up and re-read your entry to see more carefully what you meant if I can.
However, in my "little rant" I think I described your attitude towards the New Testament accurately. And that is a major problem discussing NT interpretation, I think.
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In the mean time this portion deserves some response:
The first thing that needs to be understood is who abides in Jesus' love. In John 15:10, Jesus clearly states that one must KEEP His commandments to abide in His love. And not just KEEP His commandments, but KEEP them as He KEPT His Father's commandments (which is perfectly).
Well, I would probably recomment to Christians that the first thing the Christian needs to understand is that He is "the true Vine" and the believer is the branch. One has to SEE the relationship.
The first verse shows He is the true vine and His Father is the husbandman caring for this vine.
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me ..." (v1,2a)
The relationship is paramount. Those who believe in Christ are supernaturally JOINED to Him. This is of course confirmed in First Corinthians -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
It is confirmed in hundreds of places elsewhere. Paul, a pioneer in the experience of Christ, also said the believers are "firmly attach[ed]" to the anointed One [the Christ].
" But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God." (2 Cor. 1:21)
So we are thankful that John saw to include this word of Jesus that the believers are the attached branches and Christ is the true vine. Where does the life supply come from to be fruitful?
It totally comes from Christ the true vine.
If you don't believe that Jesus is alive and available all talk of abiding in Jesus or of abiding in the love of Jesus is nonsense.
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Another thing that needs to be understood is what happens to those who do not abide in Him. In John 15:6, Jesus clearly states that those who do not abide in Him are cast into the fire and are burned.
That's right.
I notice that it says "they gather them" without Jesus specifying who they are.
" If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (v.15)
Over the years I have taken this to be a fearful warning for not abiding in Christ. But I don't think the burning here is eternal damnation.
The "they" could be angels. But the "they" could also be people. And I have seen many Christians who have not practiced to abide in Christ. They still remained saved. But MEN gathered them and cast them into some worldly enterprise which consumed and ruined their Christian testimony.
Some gospel singers originally praising Christ seemed short of abiding in Christ. They were gathered up by worldly people who exploited their talents and they became consumed with this.
If you are a believer in Christ, it is important that you learn to abide in Christ. Otherwise, you may be gathered up by worldly people and "cast into the fire". The life element is practically burned up in terms of your outward testimony of being a disciple.
Let's consider the case of one of Paul's co-working serving ones - Demas of the book of Second Timothy .
" Be diligent to come to me quickly. For Demas has abandoned me, having loved the present age, and has gone to Thessalonica ..." (2 Timothy 4:9,10a)
This dear Christian brother was a companion of the Apostle Paul. Somewhere along the line his fervent love for the Lord was cooled down. He found something about this passing world more attractive. He left the apostolic service to pursue whatever it was in "this present age" which allured him from Christ.
He was gathered by the world and burned up from being an abiding branch in Christ.
Now granted some will protest at such an interpretation.
But there are many instances in the New Testament and in history of Christians not abiding in their first love and being "gathered" by the world.
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Jesus says the non-abiding branches are unattached and gathered and burned. He didn't specify who does this gathering and burning. In context of the rest of John I think the best application is that men gather dried up branches.
However, there is room to interpret that discipline in the kingdom age might be the burning Jesus meant. But I think the former in more likely. I am not overly dogmatic about it since it is arguable.
So I would teach that such "burning" can be repented of and recovered from. And Demas's backsliding is not necessarily the last word about his life.
This is how I take and would teach John 15:6.
In fact since I have been a lover of Jesus, I have had a number of episodes where I was "gathered" by people and cast into the worldly fire that temporarily ruined my enjoyment of Christ.
To any lovers of Jesus or perspective believer I would say that John 15:6 though sternly undersirable, is not unrecoverable. Come back through confession. And abide in the Lord Jesus once again with the beloved fellow branches.
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To summarize, those who do not KEEP His commandments perfectly do not abide in Jesus' love are cast into the fire and are burned.
The matter of keeping His commandments is a growing matter even as a branch grows.
If a man comes to Jesus Christ today he will be joyful at this new life. A command may come to him from the Holy Spirit -
"Tonight, read your gospel of John instead of going to the movies."
That may be the ONLY commandment from Jesus he receives on the first day. If he heeds this commandment his abiding will be strengthened. His empowering will encrease. In proportion to obedience grace in him will grow.
The point is that as he grows other commandments from the Spirit of Christ will come. He now spends more time to feed his spiritual life in the word than in feeding his flesh by going to the movies. The Lord Jesus will continue to command him.
Latter the Lord will say perhaps " Forgive that person that you have held a grudge against for many years."
Then he cooperates with Christ and forgives that offending person. Grace GROWS once again. He gets stronger.
As more commands come he notices that obedience causes him to become stronger and stronger and stronger. The "branch" is abiding in the true Vine. And fruit begins to be borne by him.
Of course to abide in love for Jesus and love for the fellow branches is critical. I have no argument about that.
Stop here for length.
15 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipBut my custom has been lately to put in bold with an underline the part of the other poster's words I am addressing.
I can miss someone's point at times. This is true.
But my custom has been lately to put in bold with an underline the part of the other poster's words I am addressing.
So I am not sure what your complaint is about me bolding your words. I am just highlighting a distinction between what you wrote and what I am writing. Nothing more is meant in the b ...[text shortened]... the New Testament accurately. And that is a major problem discussing NT interpretation, I think.
So I am not sure what your complaint is about me bolding your words. I am just highlighting a distinction between what you wrote and what I am writing. Nothing more is meant in the bolding.
Listen jaywill. You really need to focus here.
Once again: I DID NOT WRITE THE TEXT YOU BOLDED. What's more, from what I can tell: YOU WROTE THE TEXT IN BOLD.
I can miss someone's point at times. This is true.
I don't know how you could have possibly missed that point of my last post other than you are not taking the time to understand my words. Please go back to my last post and don't respond until after you've taken the time to understand what is being conveyed.
15 Oct 15
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipJesus says abide in me otherwise
To summarize, those who do not KEEP His commandments perfectly do not abide in Jesus' love are cast into the fire and are burned.
The matter of keeping His commandments is a growing matter even as a branch grows.
If a man comes to Jesus Christ today he will be joyful at this new life. A command may come to him from the Holy Spirit ...[text shortened]... e for the fellow branches is critical. I have no argument about that.
Stop here for length.
- you will be cast away,
- you will be withered
- you will be thrown into the fire
- you will be burned.
[where ABIDE in Christ means following Christ's commandments.]
Those kinds of statements appear all over the teachings of Christ, Paul, John, Peter, James, Jude, Revelation ... over and over and over. But you prefer to twist the meaning ... oh it does not really mean that .. it means something else
A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Act 3:22-23)
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't know how you could have possibly missed that point of my last post other than you are not taking the time to understand my words. Please go back to my last post and don't respond until after you've taken the time to understand what is being conveyed.
Are you saying that I should never put in bold what you have not written in bold if I am quoting you ?
15 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipJaywill it's really simple:I don't know how you could have possibly missed that point of my last post other than you are not taking the time to understand my words. Please go back to my last post and don't respond until after you've taken the time to understand what is being conveyed.
Are you saying that I should never put in BOLD what you have not written in BOLD if I am quoting you ?
I NEVER WROTE THOSE WORDS in BOLD.
From what I can tell, YOU WROTE THOSE WORDS in BOLD and responded as if I did.
Once again, Please go back to my 2nd to last post and don't respond until after you've taken the time to understand what is being conveyed.
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15 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999
Jesus says abide in me otherwise
- you will be cast away,
- you will be withered
- you will be thrown into the fire
- you will be burned.
[where ABIDE in Christ means following Christ's commandments.]
It is a very serious warning.
But I would never teach that it means that once receiving the Son as eternal life one could afterward perish forever.
That would be too much in contradiction to too much else in the same Gospel of John.
IE. John 6:37 - and since you like King James so much ---
King James Bible
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So the casting out of John 15:6 is not eternal perdition.
You like King James ? John 10:28
King James Bible
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Verse 29 KJV:
King James Bible
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
So you see to be taken from abiding in the true vine Christ is not the same as being plucked from the Father's or the Son's hand.
John 10:28,29 is an assurance of eternal life.
John 15:6 is a warning about not walking and abiding in Him.
I'll talk about destruction latter.