Spirituality
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Branches represent Christians.
That means I certainly am a branch.
These Christians are baptised into Christ and are IN Christ .. you are correct.
Yes. Once having been baptized into Christ I certainly realize that it is a sober thing. so John 15:6 matches my sense of the soberness of such a relationship.
Christ says these are IN Him.
Yes that is absolutely right.
Positionally I am in Christ no matter what I do since I have been eternally redeemed and Once Sealed Always Sealed.
Dispositionally though, when I exhange words with my wife in some ego dual, I immediately am aware that I am not living in Christ in a way of behaving by the Holy Spirit.
So I confess my failure. I take the blood and next time I enjoy Christ instead of enjoy the arguing self.
This is consistent with the Proverb that says a righteous man falls seven times but gets up and keeps going.
" For a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again, But the wicked are overthrown by calamity." (Prov. 24:16)
Positionally I am in Christ for eternity.
I am in the Father and the Son's hand for eternity.
Abiding in Him dispositionally, I need to log more time in Him and less detached from Him. That is what the New Testament is teaching.
There are fruitful branches and there are worthless branches/Christians that bear no fruit.
To the glorification of the Father, that is true. So they are removed.
When this has happened to me, I take the blood and return to abiding in Christ the True Vine for the glorification of the Father.
If you say the removal and burning means they are unredeemed that is wrong. In fact the Bible uses the term born again because birth is something irreversible.
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Once you are born you can never go back and be unborn.
You can be disciplined for sure.
But you cannot be unborn.
God removes them. In verse 6 Christ explains their fate .. cast away and burned.
That is correct. This is what He said to His disciples:
"If one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (v.6)
The question is HOW should the Christian interpret that.
If you teach it means the Christian becomes unborn again, unredeemed, revoked as to the gift of eternal life, then you have to go back and teach that the sheep ARE able to be removed from the Father and the Son's hand (John 10:27,28).
I won't be doing that.
I bet if you could ask Peter how he felt when he denied the His Lord three times, and saw Jesus look at Him, remembering the words that Peter would deny him three times before the crow of the cock, I bet he would discribe himself as gathered away from Jesus and burned.
Peter came back to abide in Jesus, didn't he ?
Judas Iscariot, on the other hand, was never one of the sheep and never in the hand of the Triune God for salvation.
Evil doers have no place in Gods kingdom whether or not they are Christians.
The useless servant is cast into the outer darkness.
The millennial kingdom will be a time of discipline for some of the children of God.
In the parables in Matthew servants that he was very unhappy with were cast into outer darkness. This includes those saved yet so as through fire, but saved (1 Cor. 3:14,15).
And those saved yet disciplined Christians are also those of whom Paul warns -
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you.
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (vs. 16,17)
How long did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would be with the disciples? He said "forever" -
" And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever." (John 14:16)
The fact that the Holy Spirit could be with the believers FOREVER does not mean God cannot discipline His children.
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Christ will know how to judge.
I will not presume as you do that all those that profess to believe in Christ will be in Gods kingdom.
Have you heard of "No Child Left Behind" ?
Well the kingdom age is "No Christian Left Behind".
Now some may be LATE. And some may suffer loss. And some may lose a reward to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And some may be cast into outer darkness.
But they will not be left behind in eternity.
Now think about it a little bit. If you know the propecies on the millennial kingdom very well you will recognize that the restoration of nature is not complete. It is substantial but not total.
How do I know? I know because if it were TOTAL then there would be no need for God to completely renovate the earth with fire to make a new heaven and new earth following the millennial kingdom.
Because SOME of His children still need perfecting during that time, the FULL creation of the new heaven and new earth we see in Revelation 21 and 22 does not commence until AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
So the millennial kingdom is "No Christian Left Behind" .
Once Saved Always Saved.
That does not mean Once Saved Never Disciplined.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:41-42)
That refers there to unbelievers. That refers to "the sons of the evil one" (13:38) This is by the Lord's own interpretation which He provides.
This teaching does not insist that all Christians will be rewarded to shine as the sun in that age. And it doesn't prove that some Christians cannot be disciplined to suffer loss and still be saved.
The Christians who lose the reward and suffer loss though they are saved yet so as through fire, are not eternally lost. no one can pluck them from the Triune God's hand of power and of love. Some of us will be dispensationally disciplined.
Originally posted by sonshipWell this is where we part company.Branches represent Christians.
That means I certainly am a branch.
These Christians are baptised into Christ and are IN Christ .. you are correct.
Yes. Once having been baptized into Christ I certainly realize that it is a sober thing. so [b]John 15:6 matches my sense of the soberness of such a relationship. ...[text shortened]... rong. In fact the Bible uses the term born again because birth is something irreversible.[/b]
First I am not discussing you personally.
Next Christ and ALL the Apostles stated clearly that there are Christians that will fall away, destroyed, cast in to the fire ... etc .. end of story.
Originally posted by sonshipNo Christian left behind.
Christ will know how to judge.
I will not presume as you do that all those that profess to believe in Christ will be in Gods kingdom.
Have you heard of "No Child Left Behind" ?
Well the kingdom age is [b]"No Christian Left Behind".
Now some may be LATE. And some may suffer loss. And some may lose a reward to reign with Ch ...[text shortened]... m the Triune God's hand of power and of love. Some of us will be dispensationally disciplined.[/b]
There is not such thing in the Bible
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Originally posted by Rajk999In the new heaven and new earth in the consummation of the New Jerusalem, no Christian will fail to be there.
No Christian left behind.
There is not such thing in the Bible
He prayed this concerning His original disciples:
"When I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given to Me, and I guarded them; and not one of them perished except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
He lost none of the disciples except Judas who never believed in Him apparently.
Concerning all others who believe into Him, He starts a good work and will COMPLETE IT.
He guarded the original believers. He guards the following ones down through the ages.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
Unto an inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, kept in the heavens for you,
Who are BEING GUARDED by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed at the last time." ( 1 Peter 1:3-5)
He also has started a good work in His believers and will COMPLETE it.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun in you a good work will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." ( Philippians 1:6)
He is able to save us and that to the UTTERMOST. This is because His priesthood is unalterable and He lives to intercede for His people always.
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable.
Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Heb. 7:24,25)
In Christ He chose us before the foundation of the world and in Christ marked out a destiny for us before the creation of the universe - "before the foundation of the world".
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love.
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:2,3)
So there is no Christian left behind ultimately in the new heaven and new earth in the full consummation of the New Jerusalem. And this firm foundation is the best in order to go on to obedience to His indwelling life.
I could go on. But you can see how no man is able to pluck us out of the Father's hand which is the Son's hand (John 10:28,29)
None of what i have written here impiies that the wise Father cannot and will not discipline His sons according to what they need ON THE WAY to their ultimate destiny.
"But to Him who is able to GUARD you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation.
To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord be glory, majesty, might, and authority before all time and now and unto all eternity. Amen." (Jude 24,25)
16 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonship[/b]Well we read the same Bible interpret it differently. The sheep of Christ are those that follow him and these are those that nobody can pluck out of Christ hand. Not all Christians are sheep, or are fruitful branches or good seed. Some Christians are goats, are unfruitful branches and bad seed, which will be destroyed.
In the new heaven and new earth in the consummation of the New Jerusalem, no Christian will fail to be there.
He prayed this concerning His original disciples:
[b] "When I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given to Me, and I guarded them; and not one of them perished except the son of perdition ...[text shortened]... and authority before all time and now and unto all eternity. Amen." (Jude 24,25)
Regarding Judas Iscariot, you do not even realise that you are incriminating your doctrine by saying this :
Judas Iscariot, on the other hand, was never one of the sheep and never in the hand of the Triune God for salvation.
This is a good example of indoctrination. You are told of a doctrine which you believe, but there are statements that you yourself make which conflict with that doctrine .. and you do not realise it. Indoctrination removes your ability to see the flaws. If you free yourself of group dogma then your insight will be far clearer.
If you were alive in the time of Christ, you would have been sure that Judas would have been saved eternally, beccause Judas fulfilled what you think is the requirement for eternal life - BELIEF OR FAITH with your mouth ... ie profess your faith with your mouth and you will have eternal life.
You do not have the ability to determine who believes with their heart .. only God or Christ can do that. So maybe you should leave the determination of who gets into Gods Kingdom to Christ, let Christ decide which Christians are sheep and which are goats.
But I know you will try to argue your way out of that .. so good luck with that. Im not responding to any more on this thread. I think I have said enough.
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In the Bible "sheep" is used in different ways for people at different times.
Believers in the church are called sheep John 10
Jews are called sheep in Psalm 80:1; Jer. 23:1-4 and 31:10
The nations or Gentiles are called sheep in Ezekiel 34:20-22; Psalm 100: 1-3.
The sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 stand for the Gentile nations. The sheep in the Christian sense are in the group of the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.
Originally posted by sonshipNothing on the Judas Iscariot fiasco? I think Jesus would have had a good laugh at you if you had told Judas that he was saved eternally and not even God and take away his eternal life... Jesus would have shook his head in disbelief and think to himself ".. how the hell does this joker Jaywill/Sonship know who gets eternal life and who does not .. 😀
In the Bible [b]"sheep" is used in different ways for people at different times.
Believers in the church are called sheep John 10
Jews are called sheep in Psalm 80:1; Jer. 23:1-4 and 31:10
The nations or Gentiles are called sheep in Ezekiel 34:20-22; Psalm 100: 1-3.
The sheep of Matthew 25:31-46 stand for the Gentile ...[text shortened]... sheep in the Christian sense are in the group of the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.[/b]
It is for those like you that lived in the time of Christ that he said:
Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Nothing on the Judas Iscariot fiasco? I think Jesus would have had a good laugh at you if you had told Judas that he was saved eternally and not even God and take away his eternal life... Jesus would have shook his head in disbelief and think to himself ".. how the hell does this joker Jaywill/Sonship know who gets eternal life and who does not ..
I have no idea what it is you find so amusing.
Some of your posts are a waste of time.
It is for those like you that lived in the time of Christ that he said:
Mat_7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Where in that verse does it say believers are deprived of eternal life?
It says they will not enter to the kingdom of the heavens. Nothing is said about losing eternal life. YOU assume that you can insert [eternal life] in the place where it says "the kingdom of the heavens".
YOU assume that.
However, if Christians are what is meant by calling on the name of the Lord, some lose reward, suffer loss, yet are saved as yet through fire (1 Cor,. 3:15).
Entering into the kingdom of the heavens there means enjoy the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.
16 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipJesus Christ would have found your doctrine very amusing. Claiming to know who gets eternal life and who does not, is the biggest lie since the lie Satan told Eve .."Ye shall not surely die". You need to watch yourself because your doctrine is remarkably close to the doctrine of Satan.
[quote] Nothing on the Judas Iscariot fiasco? I think Jesus would have had a good laugh at you if you had told Judas that he was saved eternally and not even God and take away his eternal life... Jesus would have shook his head in disbelief and think to himself ".. how the hell does this joker Jaywill/Sonship know who gets eternal life and who does not ..[/q ...[text shortened]... f the heavens there means enjoy the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.
16 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipYou certainly are prideful.
Page 19
You know jaywill, it's becoming increasingly evident that you aren't taking the time to understand the words to which you are responding. Rather it seems you've chosen the tactic of attacking indiscriminately.
Response: As far as I can see you are saying I responded to words which YOU DID NOT WRITE.
That is incorrect. Bu ...[text shortened]... le of posts. Are you willing to do that? [/quote]
Whew! Are we finished now with Page 19 ?
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Jesus Christ would have found your doctrine very amusing. Claiming to know who gets eternal life and who does not, is the biggest lie since the lie Satan told Eve .."Ye shall not surely die". You need to watch yourself because your doctrine is remarkably close to the doctrine of Satan.
The New Testament, not me, is clear about possessing Christ is possessing eternal life.
" He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12,13)
Now over the years of studying the Bible I have concluded:
1.) Can one have eternal life and be rewarded ? Yes.
2.) Can one have eternal life and lose a reward or suffer loss (at the judgement seat of Christ) ? Yes.
3.) Can one have eternal life and give the Father some trouble so that it takes more time for God to perfect him? Yes.
4.) Can one have eternal life and be disciplined in this age ? Yes.
5.) Can one have eternal life and be disciplined in the age following this age, the millennial kingdom ? Yes.
6.) Can one have eternal life and mature on time ? Yes.
7.) Can one have eternal life and be tardy, late in maturing ? Yes.
8.) Can one have eternal life and be excluded from the kingdom of the heavens in its manifestation at Christ's return ? Yes.
10.) Do any of the undesirable deficiencies in the Christian life HAVE to take place ? No.
11.) Are any of the above excuses to live a disobedient Christian life? Of course not. And none of the negative maladies should be encouraged.
12.) Once a person has the Son of God can they forever lose the Son of God ? No.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou don't know the half of it.
You certainly are prideful.
I mean I am REALLY prideful.
Do you still need me to go over page 19 with comments ?
To the best of my figuration we're finished with this issue of misquoting and responding to statements you didn't write.
Rejoice with me that I can stand not on my own merit but on the incorruptible merit of Jesus. Rejoice with me that redemption is so marvelous, beyond our power to praise.
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Paul teaches -
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
And Jesus said:
" Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens. " (Matt. 7:21)
Is it possible to believe both these passages?
Or must the Christian decide one is a lie ?
I prefer to believe both verses. I trust God who uttered both passages - one through the apostolic ministry and the other through the Son of God. I reserve the right to believe both Romans 10:9 and Matt. 7:21).
The scope of having eternal life must be wider than the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens. Rajk999 would teach that the two scopes are identical.
If one is in New Jersey one is in the United States.
But one can be in the United States but not enter into New Jersey.
The scope of the United States overlaps the scope of New Jersey. But the former is larger.