Spirituality
15 Sep 15
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
17 Oct 15
2 edits
The scope of having eternal life overlaps the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens. Yet the scope of having eternal life is wider too.
When Paul says that some SAVED will receive a reward and some SAVED will lose a reward and "suffer loss" the scope of being saved is obviously larger than the scope of being rewarded. Yet they do overlap too.
Speaking strictly of Christians only Paul writes:
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation [Christ (v.11) remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
Calling to be saved and entering into the millennial kingdom reward for 1,000 years, overlap. But the former is larger in scope.
Bible readers who failed to see this usually do not take Revelation 20 seriously when it speaks of the age of 1,000 years preceding the eternal age. ( See Rev. 20:2,3,4,5,6,7 )
This prelude of 1,000 years to the age of the new heaven and new earth in eternity (Rev. 21,22) is set forth by God as an incentive for His people to cooperate with Him in the preceding ages.
Now some people cannot read too long. But these are issues which require some reading time. The Bible is not always so easy to understand. And impatience that some concepts cannot be taught in few words is self defeating and a sign of immaturity.
Any such, come back when your attention span develops a bit more.
17 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipIf you had lived in the time of Christ and you were to preach that doctrine Christ would have had a good laugh at you for claiming to know who gets eternal life and who does not ... why are you playing God?
The scope of having eternal life overlaps the scope of entering into the kingdom of the heavens. Yet the scope of having eternal life is wider too.
When Paul says that some SAVED will receive a reward and some SAVED will lose a reward and [b]"suffer loss" the scope of being saved is obviously larger than the scope of being rewarded. Yet they do overl ...[text shortened]... and a sign of immaturity.
Any such, come back when your attention span develops a bit more.[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999You're still ignorant.
If you had lived in the time of Christ and you were to preach that doctrine Christ would have had a good laugh at you for claiming to know who gets eternal life and who does not ... why are you playing God?
In the last analysis only God knows infallibly those who are His (2 Tim. 2:19). And we may in fact make mistake. However, this does not mean that Christians should go out of their way to be insecure and ambiguous about the promises of God.
Will Christian mistake false saved from true ones? Yes, sometimes they will (Matt. 13:24-30). This fact does not mean that Christians should not stand definitely on God's word and lead others to do so.
False humility is not a virtue. And there are plenty of verses encouraging us to stand on God's precious promises in a definite way.
Your philosophy of using God's perfect infallible knowledge as a rational to remain obscure, uncommitted, ambiguous, afraid to stand on, ie, First John 5:12,13 is just your worldly invention. It doesn't persuade us of your humility.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29602
17 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipI like that analogy.
... If one is in New Jersey one is in the United States.
But one can be in the United States but not enter into New Jersey.
The scope of the United States overlaps the scope of New Jersey. But the former is larger.
For me the convergence of the 2 verses is on the word 'and' in Rom 10:9. - The verse is saying that it is not enough just to confess with your mouth but that you 'also' have to back up these words with heart felt belief, to find salvation. This would seem compatible with Matt 7:21 that likewise says words on their own are not enough.
17 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipWell I would not call you ignorant. You are misguided and deceived. This happens when Christians place their trust in the teachings of man rather that Christ and the Apostles. Maybe also you lack the ability to read and understand for yourself.
You're still ignorant.
In the last analysis only God knows infallibly those who are His [b](2 Tim. 2:19). And we may in fact make mistake. However, this does not mean that Christians should go out of their way to be insecure and ambiguous about the promises of God.
Will Christian mistake false saved from true ones? Yes, sometimes they will ( ...[text shortened]... First John 5:12,13 is just your worldly invention. It doesn't persuade us of your humility.[/b]
The question stands .. Why are you playing God, because nothing you said justifies your doctrine. You quote from Timothy but did not quote the whole verse. Here it is:
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Timothy 2:19 KJV)
God knows who is his YES, but you ignore the last sentence... those that claim Christ must depart from iniquity.
You got that? Its all over the NT but you always leave that part out because you think it is ok to sin. Continuous and wilful sin according to the Apostles and Christ, may exclude the Christian from entering the Kingdom of God and eternal life.
Why you continue to play God
Why you continue to deny the teachings of Christ
Why do you argue against the teachings of the Apostles
It is only to support the teachings of MEN. You are a MAN SUPPORTER... and the truth is not in your mouth, because you continue to twist the Bible and ignore the parts that condemns your teachings.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by Rajk999
Well I would not call you ignorant.
What a gentleman.
Of course to dismiss what I write as "gibberish" ? ... well, that's another story.
This happens when Christians place their trust in the teachings of man rather that Christ and the Apostles
Since you cannot deal with the logic of the two passages, one from Jesus and the other from the apostle of Jesus, you come up with this excuse instead.
Tell me about Titus 3:5 which says -
"Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, ... "
How come it doesn't agree with you that believers -
1,) We will be saved because of works of righteousness which we will do.
2.) Not out of His mercy but out of our works which we do, He will save us.
Why doesn't it talk with the legalism you talk ?
The question stands .. Why are you playing God?
Believing in Romans 10:9 and Matthew 7:21 both are "playing God" ? That's not playing God. That is believing God's word.
Well I would not call you ignorant. You are misguided and deceived.. Maybe also you lack the ability to read and understand for yourself.
More rhetoric instead of well reasoned argument.
because nothing you said justifies your doctrine.
First Corinthians 3:3:14,15 refutes you. And you have never been able to get away from that.
Saved - and rewarded
Saved - but as through fire suffering loss
You've never been able to refute the plain teaching of Scripture here. I don't wait anymore for you to even try.
You quote from Timothy but did not quote the whole verse.
Nothing sneaky going on in my quoting only the portion I am focused on. I know what the rest of the verse says perfectly well.
But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and refer to the part you suggest I am hiding. Go ahead. Let's see it all.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, havi because nothing you said justifies your doctrine. ng this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Timothy 2:19 KJV)
You have done exactly nothing to correct anything I said. NOTHING.
OF COURSE he who names the Lord should depart from evil.
Did I say Christians should not depart from evil ?
Where?
Quote me where I said anything about a believer NOT departing from evil after naming the Lord as his Lord.
So you think you're really telling me something !
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
God knows who is his YES, but you ignore the last sentence... those that claim Christ must depart from iniquity.
Of course ! But that is an EXHORTATION which a believer may or may not go on to follow. That has nothing to do with the fact that in the last analysis only God knows who possesses His imparted divine life.
You coming afterwards bragging that I hide the exhortation telling the SAVED how they should behave, by departing from evil, while important indeed, is not the point of the matter of possessing God's eternal life.
You got that? Its all over the NT but you always leave that part out because you think it is ok to sin.
No I don't think any Christian should FAIL to depart from iniquity.
I never taught that.
I have never written that.
I just stand upon the assurance of eternal redemption and eternal life.
YOU ... YOU ... need to rationalize that because I stand upon the assurance of the promise of, say, Ephesians 2:8,9 it follows that I am teaching Christians NOT to depart from iniquity.
Your thinking is just stupid.
Which have I taught is MORE desireable ?
1.) Be saved and REWARDED.
2.) Be saved yet so as through fire and suffer loss.
I have always taught that what OUGHT to be in the Christian life is what we should pursue as Christians.
I encourage NO ONE, and especially NO CHRISTIAN to not depart from iniquity. I simply realize that the Bible teaching about the discipline of the coming age of the millennium.
Originally posted by sonshipGod knows who is his YES, but you ignore the last sentence... those [b]that claim Christ must depart from iniquity.
Of course ! But that is an EXHORTATION which a believer may or may not go on to follow. That has nothing to do with the fact that in the last analysis only God knows who possesses His imparted divine life.
You co ...[text shortened]... simply realize that the Bible teaching about the discipline of the coming age of the millennium.[/b]You would have told Judas Iscariot that was saved eternally.
You would have been WRONG.
You dont know who gets into Gods Kingdom.
Dont play God.
You are aguing like an idiot.
17 Oct 15
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeFaith is more than words. Anyone can say words. Faith already encompasses the 'heartfelt belief' you mention. And this is why oaths and promises have meaning. They're more than 'just words', too.
I like that analogy.
For me the convergence of the 2 verses is on the word 'and' in Rom 10:9. - The verse is saying that it is not enough just to confess with your mouth but that you 'also' have to back up these words with heart felt belief, to find salvation. This would seem compatible with Matt 7:21 that likewise says words on their own are not enough.
Let me respond to this foolishness that you quote over and over like a child, as if it changes anything:
First Corinthians 3:3:14,15 refutes you. And you have never been able to get away from that.
Saved - and rewarded
Saved - but as through fire suffering loss
You've never been able to refute the plain teaching of Scripture here. I don't wait anymore for you to even try.
Those in this group fall squarely into the sheep category. These are good branches, these had pleased Christ sufficiently and done as Christ wanted. As Paul stated some plant, some water, some nuture etc etc in the vineyard of Christ. Everyone is not able to work the same way, some are great workers and some are not, so the reward described varies according to the work done. I agree that some of these Christians would be punished [not destroyed] at the start of the milennium and made to try again.
The parable of Christ of the talents says the same thing as 1 Cor 3. And just like in that parable there are some Christians that hide their talent and these WILL NOT PLEASE CHRIST AND WILL BE DESTROYED.
1 Cor 3 does not address that group that is destroyed at all. But many other parts of the NT explains the position of these crooked Christians in very clear language that cannot be twisted.
The whole of the NT deals with all the varying groups of people, the righteous, the not so righteous, the mediocre and the evil. The evil goats, the bad branches, those who hide their talents will be destroyed. All your analysing and pleading, and verse linking and begging, is pointless. The undeniable facts are:
- THERE ARE EVIL CROOKED CHRISTIANS AND THESE WILL BE DESTROYED
- ONLY CHRIST KNOWS WHO THEY ARE ... NOT YOU.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29602
18 Oct 15
Originally posted by SuzianneWords only ever have meaning if there is substance behind them. Like telling the first girl you kiss that you love her, has no intrinsic meaning as the heartfelt emotion doesn't fuel the words spoken. (Not in my case anyway. She had really big ears).
Faith is more than words. Anyone can say words. Faith already encompasses the 'heartfelt belief' you mention. And this is why oaths and promises have meaning. They're more than 'just words', too.
18 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Jesus said those that didn't believe in Him were condemn already, does that mean that
If you had lived in the time of Christ and you were to preach that doctrine Christ would have had a good laugh at you for claiming to know who gets eternal life and who does not ... why are you playing God?
those that do not believe in Him are condemn already? If I accept what Jesus said, I think
I do know what a little something about some that are condemn right now.
18 Oct 15
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you know who gets eternal life and who does not.
Jesus said those that didn't believe in Him were condemn already, does that mean that
those that do not believe in Him are condemn already? If I accept what Jesus said, I think
I do know what a little something about some that are condemn right now.
Good for you.
As far as I know only Christ knows that.
18 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Follow closely to what I said, Jesus said that those that do not believe are condemned
So you know who gets eternal life and who does not.
Good for you.
As far as I know only Christ knows that.
already, so can I trust that to mean that those that do not believe are condemned already?