Salvation

Originally posted by KellyJay
Follow closely to what I said, Jesus said that those that do not believe are condemned
already, so can I trust that to mean that those that do not believe are condemned already?

Follow closely what I said... do you claim to know who is condemned ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Follow closely what I said... do you claim to know who is condemned ?

No, I am just accepting that Jesus cut out a large part of the human race by what He said.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I am just accepting that Jesus cut out a large part of the human race by what He said.

OK.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Words only ever have meaning if there is substance behind them. Like telling the first girl you kiss that you love her, has no intrinsic meaning as the heartfelt emotion doesn't fuel the words spoken. (Not in my case anyway. She had really big ears).

Everything you say to another human being on this planet should carry some substance. Even if you're just ordering a hamburger at McD's. Missing the opportunity to connect with other people is not a good thing, for so many reasons. This is why a good many men on this planet deserve a kick in the 'boys'. Call it a 'wake-up call'.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Everything you say to another human being on this planet should carry some substance. Even if you're just ordering a hamburger at McD's. Missing the opportunity to connect with other people is not a good thing, for so many reasons. This is why a good many men on this planet deserve a kick in the 'boys'. Call it a 'wake-up call'.

If only your posts here reflected this ideology.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I am just accepting that Jesus cut out a large part of the human race by what He said.

Maybe you should have a read of this:

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:44-50 KJV)

My take on this passage is that Jesus is saying the following :
- that to believe in Him is to believe in his teachings = following his teachings otherwise the man abides in darkness or put another way to abide in light = following the teachings of Christ.
- if a man rejects Christ, then that man choses not to receive Christ's teachings, and God will judge that man in the last day.
- God gave Christ his words/teachings and these teachings = eternal life

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe you should have a read of this:
[quote][i]Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came ...[text shortened]... t man in the last day.
- God gave Christ his words/teachings and these teachings = eternal life

I've no issue with this passage it doesn't mean what I've been talking about isn't true.
I'll give you several quotes from Jesus when I have a little time.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I've no issue with this passage it doesn't mean what I've been talking about isn't true.
I'll give you several quotes from Jesus when I have a little time.

Actually it does mean that what you were talking about is not true.
Both are pretty clear passages from Christ:

You quote this :
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18 KJV)

And you take it to mean that if someone does not believe in Christ they are condemned. And you are correct EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT .... You equate 'believe in Christ' with being a Christian.

My beef with that has always been that you have to take all that Christ preached and get the gist of those teachings. Several passages in the Gospels and in the writings of the Apostles explain in greater detail, like here the meaning of 'believe in Christ' is much clearer and makes far more sense than your narrow view :

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:44-50 KJV)

The correct interpretation of 'believe in Christ' is 'follow and obey his commandments'

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually it does mean that what you were talking about is not true.
Both are pretty clear passages from Christ:

You quote this :
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18 KJV)

And you take it to mean that if s ...[text shortened]...
[b]The correct interpretation of 'believe in Christ' is 'follow and obey his commandments'[/b]

Please don't tell me what I mean, I've quoted you Jesus words, it isn't my meaning you
need to be concern about, but His, and He was quite clear. You don't believe in Him you
are condemned already, if you add to that, just know that is what you are doing. I've
shared more than one verse with you that highlights this point. It is very clear in scripture
that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ, and yes that is a very
narrow way, but there is no other way to God except through Jesus Christ. I agree that
is a very narrow way, but it is backed up by scripture. Of those that are saved are only just
so, and if that is true why would those that reject, deny, or ignore Jesus be saved?


1 Peter 4:18
And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Mark 16:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 12:
48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

2 Thessalonians 2:
12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually it does mean that what you were talking about is not true.
Both are pretty clear passages from Christ:

You quote this :
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18 KJV)

And you take it to mean that if s ...[text shortened]...
[b]The correct interpretation of 'believe in Christ' is 'follow and obey his commandments'[/b]

I've never denied believers in Christ should be following and obeying his commandments,
I don't know why you keep bringing this up as if I'm denying it.

Originally posted by Rajk999

sonship: You've never been able to refute the plain teaching of Scripture here. I don't wait anymore for you to even try.
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Those in this group fall squarely into the sheep category.

Yes, Those saved and rewarded are the sheep in the Father's hand of love and the Son's hand of power. The Triune God's hand can never fail. No one is able to snatch them out of the hand of the Father / Son. And they will by no means perish forever.

These are good branches, these had pleased Christ sufficiently and done as Christ wanted.

If you want to combine or compare the two passages:
In First Cor. 3:14,15 there are those in the Father / Son's unfailing hand who have eternal life who will be rewarded.

And there are others also in the Father / Son's unailing hand who will suffer loss, yet will be saved as through fire.

Both are saved.
Both shall never perish forever.
Both are Christ's sheep in the hand of the Triune God.
Both receive the GIFT of eternal life.

Both throughout the entire New Testament are exhorted to depart from iniquity.

Both WILL ultimately depart from iniquity.
Both will be perfected.
Both will not necessarily be perfected at the same time.

Bottom line: Just because we are sheep in the unfailing hand of the Father / Son does not mean He cannot dispensationally punish us, though we all be saved.

As Paul stated some plant, some water, some nuture etc etc in the vineyard of Christ.

The specific analogy Paul uses is of a growing building. That is an entity that is at once both a FARM [or cultivated land] and a BUILDING [which is the temple of God].

"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land, God's building." (v.9)

This implies that the building, the temple is a living thing. It is a GROWING temple of God. So the growing of the believers is also the building into the temple of God.

Not only the apostles and co-workers of apostles will be examined and rewarded or punished. ALL believers will undergo the same examination from Christ. Every last Christian will be under that fiery examination at the judgment seat of Christ.

The abiding branches in John 15 are sheep in the Father / Son's hand. The branches dried up and gathered and burned are also the sheep in the Father / Son's hand.

That is how I understand it and that is how I would teach John 15.
In other words, as unpleasant as verse 6 is, they are also those who will never perish forever because they are in the Father / Son's unfailing hand.

In other words the teaching of the hand of the Triune God for the sheep (John 10) is not exactly the same as the teaching of the fruitful true vine of John 15.

In other words in First Corinthians 3:15,16 you have rewarded sheep and disciplined sheep. You have reward branches and disciplined branches.

The related verse 17 is meant there to augment Paul's warning to those marring or defiling the temple of God by building with inferior materials.

" Do you now know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you." (vs.16,17)

The best context of that warning is that to "suffer loss" for some of those saved yet through fire, is for God to destroy them. The destruction there is not eternal perdition.

If someone protests, I would point out that even in this life, Ananias and Sapphira, were made a stern example of in Acts 5:1-11 of disciples disciplined by God for attempting to build the local church in Jerusalem with the inferior materials of hypocrisy. They died.

I believe that Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5 were and still are sheep in the hand of the unfailing love of the Father and the all powerful hand of the Son.

Though this was an incident on this side of the judgment seat of Christ, it is illustrative.

Rajk999 probably wishes to argue that to be destroyed by God in First Cor. 3:17 can only mean eternal punishment in the lake of fire. However, in the very same book, you have Paul telling that one member of the Corinthian church would have his spirit saved though his flesh would undergo destruction.

" ... To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. " (5:5)

This Christian was a branch not abiding in the Vine and therefore, seriously dealt with. This was also a sheep with eternal life in the Trinity's hand. And this was a Christian in danger of losing reward yet being saved.

He was in danger of becoming an example to the church there.
God's attitude has not changed. But not every believer may be made an example of in exactly the same way. It is enough for us to know what Christ's attitude is. We still will all come before His judgment seat for believers.

Absolutely nothing I have explained above is an encouragement for Christians to sin or fail to abide in the true vine.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999 probably wishes to argue that to be destroyed by God in [b]First Cor. 3:17 can only mean eternal punishment in the lake of fire. However, in the very same book, you have Paul telling that one member of the Corinthian church would have his spirit saved though his flesh would undergo destruction.

[quote] " ... To deliver such a one to Satan ...[text shortened]... ave explained above is an encouragement for Christians to sin or fail to abide in the true vine.

Playing God again? You just cannot resist the temptation. You actually know what is Ananias and Sapphira's fate?

You are really amazing.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually it does mean that what you were talking about is not true.
Both are pretty clear passages from Christ:

You quote this :
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18 KJV)

And you take it to mean that if s ...[text shortened]...
[b]The correct interpretation of 'believe in Christ' is 'follow and obey his commandments'[/b]

OK .. lets leave it at that.