Santa Claus

@whodey said
The question was did Mohammad exist?

It is my view that both Muhammed and Jesus existed but that there was nothing divine or supernatural or divine - or divinely inspired - about either of them.

I think there are moral lessons to be drawn from the traditions that stem from both figures.

However, we can't really know much for sure about either man as a person thanks to how the 'cult of personality' surrounding each of them has been constructed by others after they died.

I certainly don't derive any personal inspiration from either of them as if they are real "living" people or known to me.

@whodey said
The assertion was that moral fiber of Jesus is universally appealing to both the religious and non-religious.

Well, so what? If Christians are wrong about Jesus being God incarnate, then whether the Golden Rule type morality attributed to Jesus is packaged as a religion by religious people or not-religion/humanism by non-religious people is neither here nor there.

@whodey said
If not, what is questionable about his morality?

If not, what is questionable about Jesus' morality?

Well did he believe it was supposedly OK for Jews to have slaves and that it was it OK to beat them?

Did he approve of genocides committed by the Hebrews earlier in history and did he believe that those atrocities could be justified - through superstition - by the Hebrews telling themselves that their God figure had supposedly told them to carry them out?

Did he believe that women should remain silent as they went about their religious practices in church and that this formed a morally sound basis for gender relations?

Did he subscribe to the demented morally depraved nonsense of the torturer god ideology?

Did he believe that the beliefs of people who were not members of his faith could be condemned as supposedly being just faeces or germs or the thoughts of unclean pigs or dogs?

Did he believe that rape was supposedly OK - or 'logically impossible' - within marriage (as Eladar has recently taught on this forum)?

Did he withhold healing powers from sick people whom he could have supposedly easily cured and only wanted to do a few examples of it in order to garner a following?

Did he believe that people should obey and not stand up to patently evil governments because those authorities had supposedly been put in place by his God figure?

There are plenty of morally questionable things.

The Jesus cult-of-personality has got more to it than the admirable Sermon on the Mount and life-affirming parables and stories like the Good Samaritan.

@fmf said
It is my view that both Muhammed and Jesus existed but that there was nothing divine or supernatural or divine - or divinely inspired - about either of them.

I think there are moral lessons to be drawn from the traditions that stem from both figures.

However, we can't really know much for sure about either man as a person thanks to how the 'cult of personality' surroundin ...[text shortened]... ive any personal inspiration from either of them as if they are real "living" people or known to me.

Looking at how both have been presented to us through religious and historical texts, would you say that they both were moral men to be emulated?

If not, why not since billions of people seem to feel differently?

Also, why do you believe Jesus existed if you claim there is no proof according to you?

@fmf said
If not, what is questionable about Jesus' morality?

Well did he believe it was supposedly OK for Jews to have slaves and that it was it OK to beat them?

Did he approve of genocides committed by the Hebrews earlier in history and did he believe that those atrocities could be justified - through superstition - by the Hebrews telling themselves that their God figure ha ...[text shortened]... n the admirable Sermon on the Mount and life-affirming parables and stories like the Good Samaritan.

I see, so your main gripe with Christianity is not about what Jesus did do and say, it is what he did not do, or did not do what you feel he should have done.

@whodey said
I see, so your main gripe with Christianity is not about what Jesus did do and say, it is what he did not do, or did not do what you feel he should have done.

Christians have not displayed moral behavior in the past. In fact, Christians have been awful in the past.

@whodey said
I see, so your main gripe with Christianity is not about what Jesus did do and say, it is what he did not do, or did not do what you feel he should have done.

Not so. You asked me about Jesus. My main "gripes" are the ones I listed. Morality is all about what humans "should" say and so. We are all moral agents who call it how we see it. You should do the same.

@whodey said
Looking at how both have been presented to us through religious and historical texts, would you say that they both were moral men to be emulated?

No. I do not seek to emulate either man.

@whodey said
Also, why do you believe Jesus existed if you claim there is no proof according to you?

He may not have lived. It's a fair point. The Gold Rule stuff is good though.

@whodey said
If not, why not since billions of people seem to feel differently?

You talking about "billions of people" does nothing for me as discourse goes.

@whodey said
Also, why do you believe Jesus existed if you claim there is no proof according to you?

Personally, I don't think there's credible proof that Jesus was a divine being, assuming he even existed.

@chaney3 said
Christians have not displayed moral behavior in the past. In fact, Christians have been awful in the past.

I must take issue with these blanket statements.

Christianity is a religion. Religions, per se, are not 'bad', or 'evil'. What you are attributing here to Christians is nothing more than typical human bad behavior. So 'being Christian' has clearly had no effect on these people. Clearly, they do not follow Christ, or they would not be displaying this 'typical bad human behavior'.

There is a massive difference between following Christ and 'being a Christian', and not following Christ and just claiming to be a Christian. Not all people who just claim to be a Christian actually do these 'typical bad human behaviors', but I would wager that no Christians who actually follow Christ do them.

Yes, it's a "no-true-Christian" argument. That does not make it untrue.

@chaney3 said
Christians have not displayed moral behavior in the past. In fact, Christians have been awful in the past.

All Christians?

I don't think so.

But as you say, you either live up to the example of Christ or do not. At least there is a good standard.

@suzianne said
Actually, no.

And yes, you can form your own opinions, if you can cut through all the bull standing in your way, placed there by those who would form your opinions for you.

Thank you, Spinmistress. 😉