24 Dec 09
Originally posted by kirksey957mmm, there are a great many themes running through that account Kirksey, we have for example the permittance of suffering on the part of God. We have Job and his integrity while under extreme trial. We have his false comforters. There are of course hints of the resurrection hope even among it in pre Christian times, for it is a very old book by all accounts. There is one of the very few instances in the entire biblical cannon, of an insight into heaven. What i really like about it, apart for the poetry and the principles, is that even after Job became self righteous, even after all he had been through, God still felt the need to offer him correction. But most of all, there is the Satanic lie, that every man has his price, that no one shall love God out of a pure motive, based on principle! and that all you need to do is hurt him and his faith shall fold! its a beautiful account really.
What do you think of God and Satan tag-teaming on poor old Job?
(Job 2:4-5) . . .: “Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. For a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch as far as his bone and his flesh and see whether he will not curse you to your very face.”
26 Dec 09
Originally posted by Ice ColdLots of theories there but the obvious one isn't. Again this light was leading these "wise men" to Herod who was going to try and find this Messiah to kill him. So this light was by no means a product of God's work.
http://www.bethlehemstar.com/
If it had been from God he would have directed these wise men directly to Jesus.
26 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75=======================================
Lots of theories there but the obvious one isn't. Again this light was leading these "wise men" to Herod who was going to try and find this Messiah to kill him. So this light was by no means a product of God's work.
If it had been from God he would have directed these wise men directly to Jesus.
Lots of theories there but the obvious one isn't. Again this light was leading these "wise men" to Herod who was going to try and find this Messiah to kill him. So this light was by no means a product of God's work.
If it had been from God he would have directed these wise men directly to Jesus.
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I do not agree with this.
The magi could have continued to trust in the guidance of the star. Then they would have been led right to where Jesus was. They got distracted by the religious backround and atmosphere of Jerusalem.
They got distracted FROM the star was when they ASSUMED that the religious establishment could better help them. The result of their being distracted were many deaths.
When they left the city, I think it says that the star appeared to them again. Jerusalem was a distraction from their being guided by the star.
Probably, if they had not diverted to Jerusalem and her priests and law experts the star would have led them right to where Jesus was.
I think the guiding star was provided by God.
26 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillNo Jay...Nothing like that said anywhere in these verses. "They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
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Lots of theories there but the obvious one isn't. Again this light was leading these "wise men" to Herod who was going to try and find this Messiah to kill him. So this light was by no means a product of God's work.
If it had been from God he would have directed these wise men directly to Jesus.
======= ...[text shortened]... have led them right to where Jesus was.
I think the guiding star was provided by God.
If they thought Jesus was somewhere else they would not have followed the star but would have asked questions to anyone for directions to find him. And when they finally did find him, he was a young child living in a house with his parents. Read the scriptures very slowly word for word and maybe you'll see the facts that are right there.....
You just hate the obvious facts because you probaly like the cute little story that's been made up over the decades of these wise men showing up at the manger and giving gifts with the star from God hanging over head.
You seem to always ignor what the scriptures plainly say and throw in your opinions. I just don't get that thinking process.
But the obvious fact is this star or light was something not produced or used by God in anyway.
26 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75That's a very bold statement. 😛 🙂
No Jay...Nothing like that said anywhere in these verses. "They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
If they thought Jesus was somewhere else they would not have followed the star but would have asked questions to anyone for directions to find him. And when they finally did find him, he was a young child living in a house with his parents. Read the ...[text shortened]... the obvious fact is this star or light was something not produced or used by God in anyway.
I choose not to question God myself. Everything comes from God, to say other wise is contrary to my own personal beliefs.
I do believe the star was just one of the many miracles eminating from God's hand.
26 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=====================================
No Jay...Nothing like that said anywhere in these verses. "They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
If they thought Jesus was somewhere else they would not have followed the star but would have asked questions to anyone for directions to find him. And when they finally did find him, he was a young child living in a house with his parents. Read the the obvious fact is this star or light was something not produced or used by God in anyway.
No Jay...Nothing like that said anywhere in these verses. "They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
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I can't find any such verse.
Don't put period inside the quotes. That is your addition.
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, Saying, Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star at its rising and have come to worship Him." (Matt. 2:1,2)
Where is the verse that you quoted ??
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If they thought Jesus was somewhere else they would not have followed the star but would have asked questions to anyone for directions to find him.
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Matthew does not say that the star led them to Jerusalem. It says the star appeared. But they simply arrived at Jerusalem.
They followed their concept. But how often men get distracted from God's guidance by following thier natural concept. The fact that they decided that they should go to Jerusalem to ask does not prove that the star would have led them there.
The star appears to them again when they leave. They rejoice at its appearance.
"And after they heard the king, t hey went their way, and behold, the star which they saw at its rising led them until it came and stood over the place where the child was. And when they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy." (Matt. 2:9,10)
It appears to me that it was not necessary for them to go to Jerusalem. The star would have led them to the place without the help of the religionists at Jerusalem.
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And when they finally did find him, he was a young child living in a house with his parents. Read the scriptures very slowly word for word and maybe you'll see the facts that are right there.....
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You are the one who invented a verse saying that the star led them to Jerusalem.
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You just hate the obvious facts because you probaly like the cute little story that's been made up over the decades of these wise men showing up at the manger and giving gifts with the star from God hanging over head.
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You're full of it.
You don't know what I believe about the Matthew account because I haven't written anything about it up until now. And that ONLY includes that matter of the star being of God.
You're the one with your JW trying hard to be off the beaten path with your torture stake, and anything else you can make up to set yourself apart from the New Testament.
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You seem to always ignor what the scriptures plainly say and throw in your opinions. I just don't get that thinking process.
But the obvious fact is this star or light was something not produced or used by God in anyway.
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It is not obvious. And I believe you are wrong.
I do not think it is a major blunder as some of your other teachings. But so far I have seen you invent a verse which is not there -
"They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
So physician, heal thyself.
26 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIt doesn't take much conviencing I would think to say they "saw a star" that was in the West because they were from the East and arrived in Jerusalem and then proceeded to ask, "Where is the one born King"? Why would they not ask: What city or area is he in? Or darn it..we should have followed that star to that other city where the star was at?
[b]=====================================
No Jay...Nothing like that said anywhere in these verses. "They followed the star to Jerusalem period."
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I can't find any such verse.
Don't put period inside the quotes. That is your addition.
"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of H y followed the star to Jerusalem period."
So physician, heal thyself.[/b]
And what concept? They were on a very long journey and if this star did go to Bethlehem first as you speculate, why would they possible change course to another city that would not have taken them to what they were looking for?
Come on Jay....Play with theories all you want. The bible says what it says. Also verse 9 says the star went ahead of them to Bethlehem. So now they once again follow the star as they did the first time......
Again this star was not used by God as the whole purpose of it was to lead them 1st to Herod and then back to Jesus so they could go back to Herod to report his position so Herod could kill him. Not much needed upstairs to see that in the black ink that it's written in as this was planed by Satan.
26 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75============================================
It doesn't take much conviencing I would think to say they "saw a star" that was in the West because they were from the East and arrived in Jerusalem and then proceeded to ask, "Where is the one born King"? Why would they not ask: What city or area is he in? Or darn it..we should have followed that star to that other city where the star was at?
And wh ...[text shortened]... ed upstairs to see that in the black ink that it's written in as this was planed by Satan.
It doesn't take much conviencing I would think to say they "saw a star" that was in the West because they were from the East and arrived in Jerusalem and then proceeded to ask, "Where is the one born King"? Why would they not ask: What city or area is he in? Or darn it..we should have followed that star to that other city where the star was at?
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It does not say that they followed the star into Jerusalem. That was an imaginary verse which you added to the word of God and whose concept you are now trying to salvage.
It is noted that no apology was offered by you for the make believe passage.
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And what concept? They were on a very long journey and if this star did go to Bethlehem first as you speculate,
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Where did I say that it went to Bethlehem first? I didn't say that. I said that I think the star would have eventually led them to where Jesus
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why would they possible change course to another city that would not have taken them to what they were looking for?
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I never said that they changed course.
The Jews had the Scriptures concerning Christ. The magi from the east may have been led by the prophecy of Numbers 24:17 about the Jewish Messiah's star. That prophecy was given by a Gentile prophet, Balaam.
The tension I see in the chapter is between the mere mental knowledge in dead letters concerning Christ, and the living vision from the star. After the magi received that living vision via the star they were misled by thier human concept. Their natural thought enfluenced them to go to the capital of the Jewish nation, Jerusalem where its king was presumed to be.
It is quite typical that they would assume the king of the nation should be in the captital of the nation. Their being misled by their natural thought to Jerusalem resulted in the deaths of many boys who were killed by those in Jerusalem (v.16)
There was one thing in Jerusalem that corrected the magi, the Scriptures (vs. 4-6), and they went then to Bethlehem (vs.8-9).
When they left Jerusalem the star appeared to them again and led them the exact place where Jesus was.
I can say that the star and the Scriptures helped them to find Jesus. I cannot say that the star led them to Jerusalem. It appears to me that their going to Jerusalem was a presumption on their part. The king of Israel surely is in the capital of Israel. But throughout Matthew God is doing things in a way not as the typical concept of man would presume, from John the Baptist through the entire manner of Christ's fulfilling His office as Messiah.
The "priest" John the Baptist with camel's hair clothing in the wilderness is another example. God was working outside the expected norms to accomplish His work.
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Come on Jay....Play with theories all you want. The bible says what it says.
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Come on galveston. It says what it says. Where does it say the star led the magi to Jerusalem ?
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Also verse 9 says the star went ahead of them to Bethlehem. So now they once again follow the star as they did the first time......
Again this star was not used by God as the whole purpose of it was to lead them 1st to Herod and then back to Jesus so they could go back to Herod to report his position so Herod could kill him.
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I don't believe that. It does not make good sense to me.
Though the Scriptures were needed to know generally where Christ was to be born, the specifics depended upon the star.
I don't believe that the star would have then led them back to the people in Jerusalem to give them more specific information. Any chance they had of finding exactly where Jesus was was in the same star that the magi had seen. If they had a heart of belief and faith and gratitude to God which these Gentiles had, they too could have gone WITH the magi to seek out the child.
They apparently didn't care that much. It is too much of a stretch for me to think that rather miraculous star would afterwards have the magi return with more specific information.
What we are told is that God told them NOT to go back. We have no verse saying that the star was leading them back and God was telling them contrary to the star's guidance.
So I think the star and the speaking God are working together and not on opposite sides as you imagine.
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Not much needed upstairs to see that in the black ink that it's written in as this was planed by Satan.
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I do not think the star had anything to do with Satan. I think it may have been a fulfillment of Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 24:17
"I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near.
There shall come forth a Star out of Israel, And He shall crush the four corners of Moab, And break down all the sons of Sheth."
When the magi said that they had seen His star, they may have had this prophecy in mind.
Your concept that when Christ was a child Satan provided a star to lead Gentile wise men so that they could inform Christ's opposers where the young boy Jesus was so that they could kill Him, I find to be a bit of a stretch. And this is not based so much on tradition but how Matthew accounts the details.
27 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillFacts.....
[b]============================================
It doesn't take much conviencing I would think to say they "saw a star" that was in the West because they were from the East and arrived in Jerusalem and then proceeded to ask, "Where is the one born King"? Why would they not ask: What city or area is he in? Or darn it..we should have followed that star ...[text shortened]... this is not based so much on tradition but how Matthew accounts the details.
This star did not lead them to Bethlehem when they first saw it but it was over Jerusalem where Harod was.
Harod wants to kill Jesus and use the wise men to get to him.
This star now leads them again, this time to Bethlehem.
They were scared of this situation and fled after they found the young boy Jesus at his parents house.
Any problems with that?
So the bottom line is with any rational thought process one would see this was not positioned our used by God because the whole purpose of this star was to find and have Jesus killed. NO where in the Bible does it say God in anyway shape or form was respondsible for the star leading the wise men on this trek.
So if it was not a sign produced by God who would not want his son to be killed at this point in his life, then the obvious one in question would be Satan....
27 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75================================
Facts.....
This star did not lead them to Bethlehem when they first saw it but it was over Jerusalem where Harod was.
Harod wants to kill Jesus and use the wise men to get to him.
This star now leads them again, this time to Bethlehem.
They were scared of this situation and fled after they found the young boy Jesus at his parents house.
An ...[text shortened]... son to be killed at this point in his life, then the obvious one in question would be Satan....
Facts.....
This star did not lead them to Bethlehem when they first saw it but it was over Jerusalem where Harod was.
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You are correct that the FIRST appearance of the star did not lead them to Bethlehem.
Show me the passage which says the star was OVER Jerusalem.
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Harod wants to kill Jesus and use the wise men to get to him.
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That is true.
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Herod sent them to Bethlehem (v.8).
This star now leads them again, this time to Bethlehem and to the exact place where the child was (v.9)
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The appearance of the star the SECOND time does lead them to Bethlehem. That fact has nothing to do with Herod's schemes. Any connection between the plots of Herod and the action of the star is purely your own imagination at best.
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They were scared of this situation and fled after they found the young boy Jesus at his parents house.
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They were WARNED by GOD not to return home the SAME way. That is all it says concerning the magi:
"And because they had been divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed by another way to their country" (v.12)
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Any problems with that?
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What problem are you expecting ? The fact proves nothing about what power was behind the unusual star.
Matthew 2:12 does not furnish you logical proof that the star was the activity of Satan.
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So the bottom line is with any rational thought process one would see this was not positioned our used by God because the whole purpose of this star was to find and have Jesus killed.
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That is pure conjecture on your part which is very weakly evidenced.
To proclaim that the whole purpose of the star was to find and have Jesus killed is a bit of twisted logic if ever I saw it.
There simply is no strong connection between the behavior of the star and the behavior of Herod.
You could say with as much irrationality that the purpose of the Scriptures was to find Jesus and have Him killed. Two things led the magi to Jesus, the star and the Scriptures. Herod sent them to Bethlehem based on what the Scriptures said.
Neither the star or the Scriptures should be implicated in the evil plot of Herod to have the child killed.
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NO where in the Bible does it say God in anyway shape or form was respondsible for the star leading the wise men on this trek.
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No where does it say Satan sent the star. And the Scriptures at least furnishes us with a possible prophecy in the book of Numbers about the star of the Messianic king. And that was given by a Gentile prophet. Perhaps that is why the magi spoke of the king of Israel's star.
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So if it was not a sign produced by God who would not want his son to be killed at this point in his life, then the obvious one in question would be Satan....
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It is obvious that Satan wanted to kill the child. It is totally your conjecture that the star that led them had anything to do with that.
Why couldn't the star continue to shine for Herod and his troops ?
The fact that it was the magi solely who benefitted from the unusual activity of the star suggests that it was NOT there to help Herod the opposer. But rather it WAS there to assist the true seekers of God's anointed King.
27 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillJust can't connect the dots huh?
[b]================================
Facts.....
This star did not lead them to Bethlehem when they first saw it but it was over Jerusalem where Harod was.
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You are correct that the FIRST appearance of the star did not lead them to Bethlehem.
Show me the passage which says the star was OVER Jeru ...[text shortened]... od the opposer. But rather it WAS there to assist the true seekers of God's anointed King.[/b]
27 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75=====================
Just can't connect the dots huh?
Just can't connect the dots huh?
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I'm afraid I don't see dots. I see your points as holes in your theology.
But you can answer my question:
Why couldn't the star continue to shine for Herod and his troops ?
27 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillWhat would be the purpose of that?
[b]=====================
Just can't connect the dots huh?
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I'm afraid I don't see dots. I see your points as holes in your theology.
But you can answer my question:
Why couldn't the star continue to shine for Herod and his troops ? [/b]