30 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75Nope. Pick your favorite reason:
Has Satan the devil ever tried to kill Jesus?
1) Jesus was God/a god, and thus Satan knew the attempt would be futile.
2) Jesus' death redeemed man from sin, and that's the last thing Satan would want to happen.
3) Scripture never claims any such thing [no, it's not good enough to claim he motivated intermediaries to do it].
4) Satan, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, is a figment of your fking imagination. [Wouldn't normally swear, but have to give props to Chasing Amy, from which the partial quote is lifted.]
31 Dec 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75It just says Magi from the east. Nothing about 3 wise men. Also we don't know what the star was. We can speculate but as you would say G75 what does the bible read? Oh and the magi came to worship the child by the way.
Ok..if you read the whole account of the supposed 3 wise men and this star that supposedly leads them to Jesus, it is not saying this at all. A little research says these were astrologers. They were looking for the Messiah because of prophises that they had heard about. But they noticed this star or light in the sky which led them to Jerusalem. A side po if the astrologers had reported back to Herod?
All this is in black and white in Matt 2:1-23.
Matthew 2
The Visit of the Magi
1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,
2"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."
3When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born.
5They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
6'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"
7Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.
8And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."
9After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.
10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
12And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
31 Dec 09
When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. The Star whatever it was was a sign from God. Could have been an angel? While we can argue that Herod was doing the devils bidding. He also did not want any challenge to his authority. I also heard that the magi were astrologers/star watchers from Babylon. They possibly knew of the prophecies about the messiah from the time of Daniel. This is not an absolute fact though.
Manny
31 Dec 09
pOriginally posted by menace71Daniel did leave quite an impression on the astrologers/star watchers. So I think that could be a valid point as to their knowlege of Daniel's prophecies. Does Josephus mention any connection?
When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. The Star whatever it was was a sign from God. Could have been an angel? While we can argue that Herod was doing the devils bidding. He also did not want any challenge to his authority. I also heard that the magi were astrologers/star watchers from Babylon. They possibly knew of the prophecies about the messiah from the time of Daniel. This is not an absolute fact though.
Manny
31 Dec 09
Originally posted by menace71Well Manny your actually agreeing with me on many points in case you don't know. And yes they did come to see the child and worship him. I never said they didn't. But as you mentioned they did follow the star unlike Jay admits. So yes the un-numbered wise men from the East do exactly as you say they did. But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and not directly to Bethlehem? If it was from God why not direct them to Jerusalem to begin with and avoid all the complications that happened with Herod who satan knew would want to kill Jesus if he could find him?
It just says Magi from the east. Nothing about 3 wise men. Also we don't know what the star was. We can speculate but as you would say G75 what does the bible read? Oh and the magi came to worship the child by the way.
Matthew 2
The Visit of the Magi
1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east ...[text shortened]... in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.
And if this star was from God, why are the only ones who saw it were those wise men who knew of the prophesy? If this star was from God and he knowing how happy his own people would have been to know he had been born, not see it? You think if this was something that God was using to show his son was now born he would have let them all see it. Don't you think?
01 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75===============================
Well Manny your actually agreeing with me on many points in case you don't know. And yes they did come to see the child and worship him. I never said they didn't. But as you mentioned they did follow the star unlike Jay admits. So yes the un-numbered wise men from the East do exactly as you say they did. But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and no ...[text shortened]... od was using to show his son was now born he would have let them all see it. Don't you think?
But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and not directly to Bethlehem?
===================================
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
You have never shown us where the Bible says that.
01 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillWhere is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
[b]===============================
But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and not directly to Bethlehem?
===================================
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
You have never shown us where the Bible says that.[/b]
Matthew 2 alludes to that doesnt it?
'... there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying "Where is he ... for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him" ... '
That kinda implies they followed the star to Jerusalem.
01 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillRead the scriptures and use some common sense. Where is the scripture that says they were distracted as you say and where is the scripture that says the star did not go to Jerusalem? The verse says simply: "They say the star and went to Jerusaleem." I would think a little reasoning by anyone Jay would decide the star must have been over Jerusalem as that's where they went? Geeeeez!!!!
[b]===============================
But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and not directly to Bethlehem?
===================================
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
You have never shown us where the Bible says that.[/b]
02 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by wolfgang59==================================
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
Matthew 2 alludes to that doesnt it?
'... there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying "Where is he ... for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him" ... '
That kinda implies they followed the star to Jerusalem.
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
Matthew 2 alludes to that doesnt it?
'... there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying "Where is he ... for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him" ... '
That kinda implies they followed the star to Jerusalem.
==================================
Maybe it just means something like this:
"Wow, there is the King of Israel's star. We should go to the land of Israel, to its capital city to see that born King. Surely they'll know about it in Jerusalem."
In other words they followed their political assumptions.
02 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillWhatever Jay...You so missing the point.
[b]==================================
Where is the verse that says this star went to Jerusalem first ?
Matthew 2 alludes to that doesnt it?
'... there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying "Where is he ... for we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him" ... '
That kinda implies they followed the star to J ...[text shortened]... about it in Jerusalem."
In other words they followed their political assumptions.
02 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Bethlehem & Jerusalem I believe are very close to each other. Like suburbs LOL. Wise men coming from the east would not have gone unnoticed by the inhabitants of the area. They most likely had caravans with them. Camels? Horses? Don't know. Herod would have known of their arrival. I can't remember where but it talks about his star and scepter rising in the O.T. now I will have to look for it.
Well Manny your actually agreeing with me on many points in case you don't know. And yes they did come to see the child and worship him. I never said they didn't. But as you mentioned they did follow the star unlike Jay admits. So yes the un-numbered wise men from the East do exactly as you say they did. But why did this star go to Jerusalem first and no ...[text shortened]... od was using to show his son was now born he would have let them all see it. Don't you think?
Manny
02 Jan 10
Originally posted by Proper KnobWhether "only a story" or an oral history it should "make sense".
Here's a suggestion that no one has touched on yet, although it is a little left-field.
It's only a story?!
Jack and the Beanstalk is a story but Jack's actions are motivated and the story makes sense (albeit unbelievable). We should expect at least the same from a religious text.