Science is best supported by?

@kellyjay said
Quite a story.

It’s known as “natural selection”.

@kellyjay said
Quite a story.

Below are links to some articles on this behavior (real science, not just stories):

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep13220

https://www.animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/27/AB_C_Vol7(2)_Fischer.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305706277_How_Do_Primates_Survive_Among_Humans_Mechanisms_Employed_by_Vervet_Monkeys_at_Lake_Nabugabo_Uganda

I should correct a misremembered detail: the "eagle" call invokes a different behavior than I recalled: they all look up and search the skies. There is also a "leopard" call, which triggers tree-climbing.

Ververts are increasingly coming into contact with humans because humans are encroaching on their natural habitat and turning it into farmland. Vervets raid the farms for food, and the farmers respond by patrolling their farms with dogs. Hence the new threat and the new danger call.

Biological changes in response to environmental pressure to find food is a classic example of evolution in action.

@moonbus said
Below are links to some articles on this behavior (real science, not just stories):

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep13220

https://www.animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/27/AB_C_Vol7(2)_Fischer.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305706277_How_Do_Primates_Survive_Among_Humans_Mechanisms_Employed_by_Vervet_Monkeys_at_Lake_Nabugabo_Uganda

I ...[text shortened]... nges in response to environmental pressure to find food is a classic example of evolution in action.

So when I read these it will be science not opinions, or may have occurred, or some other type of just so story?

@kellyjay said
Quite a story.

Is it not quite as convincing as the story of the Garden of Eden taken as literally true?

@fmf said
Nope. It's the sound of something going over Suzianne's head. It's as if she has never read any of KellyJay's posts these past 10-15 years.

You people have tried to make sense to each other for 10-15 years? And still friends?

True friendship is seen with the passing years. Still friends, but always stirring?

What is that which is said about stirring? The wind stirring, a loud sound is whooshing.

"And don't go stirring up a lot of trouble for us. This case isn't ripe yet. Until it is, our policy with Mr Big is 'live and let live'." - Ian Fleming

In the realm where the wind does play, A tale of its journey I'll relay. Whoosh, it whispers, a gentle breeze, Dancing through the leaves, a silent plea.

With a gust, it takes flight, so free, Through the sky, it carries me. The world below, a vast expanse, Underneath, the earth's embrace.

Oh, the wind, with its tales to tell, Of the clouds it swells, the seas it swell. A whisperer in the night's dark folds, A friend in the day's golden holds.

So here's to the wind, whooshing high, Carrying stories, under the sky.

@moonbus said
Below are links to some articles on this behavior (real science, not just stories):

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep13220

https://www.animalbehaviorandcognition.org/uploads/journals/27/AB_C_Vol7(2)_Fischer.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305706277_How_Do_Primates_Survive_Among_Humans_Mechanisms_Employed_by_Vervet_Monkeys_at_Lake_Nabugabo_Uganda

I ...[text shortened]... nges in response to environmental pressure to find food is a classic example of evolution in action.

Stories not changing my mind having read these, and seeing what goes on now does not mean it started from scratch and evolved, you are reading more into these things than what is there.

So it looks like now you are okay with using terms like mechanisms when it comes to living organisms where specific types of work are being done, have you changed your mind?

@kellyjay said
Stories not changing my mind having read these, and seeing what goes on now does not mean it started from scratch and evolved, you are reading more into these things than what is there.

So it looks like now you are okay with using terms like mechanisms when it comes to living organisms where specific types of work are being done, have you changed your mind?

The 'mechanisms' referred to are merely metaphors, convenient explanitory turns of phrase, nothing more.

I'm reading nothing at all into how it all got started. For the umpteenth time, evolution does not explain how it all got started. It explains speciation.

There's more: some primates change accents or dialects due to social pressure from or contact with other species. This was previously thought to be a uniquely human trait, but studies have demonstrated the ability in primates too.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/27/americas/primate-calls-study-scli-intl-scn/index.html

We're not nearly as special as you seem to think we are. We are different only in degree, not 'miraculously' different.

@moonbus said
The 'mechanisms' referred to are merely metaphors, convenient explanitory turns of phrase, nothing more.

I'm reading nothing at all into how it all got started. For the umpteenth time, evolution does not explain how it all got started. It explains speciation.

There's more: some primates change accents or dialects due to social pressure from or contact with other species ...[text shortened]... special as you seem to think we are. We are different only in degree, not 'miraculously' different.

Metaphors are explanatory terms explaining phenomena in terms we can understand and relate to. You look at the definition of mechanism you will see mechanism is a system of parts working together to do specific jobs. With most systems, as it goes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, because the parts are causing specialized work to be done. You seem to think this can be true in human handy work but even if everything else fits if it is in a living system it doesn't count.

@moonbus said
The 'mechanisms' referred to are merely metaphors, convenient explanitory turns of phrase, nothing more.

I'm reading nothing at all into how it all got started. For the umpteenth time, evolution does not explain how it all got started. It explains speciation.

There's more: some primates change accents or dialects due to social pressure from or contact with other species ...[text shortened]... special as you seem to think we are. We are different only in degree, not 'miraculously' different.

If you do not know how it started then you cannot know much of anything about the process. Not knowing the beginning means you can say whatever you want about the process, you could say true or untrue things, who would know the difference?

Disconnected from the beginning it would be mindlessly easy to write history, with that you could demonize anything or one, or anoint someone as angelic. You could change your story on the fly, who could correct you? You see a few traits that animals have that we share, and that for you is evolution, not design because mindlessness can do the remarkable things we see in life.

@kellyjay said
If you do not know how it started then you cannot know much of anything about the process. Not knowing the beginning means you can say whatever you want about the process, you could say true or untrue things, who would know the difference?

Disconnected from the beginning it would be mindlessly easy to write history, with that you could demonize anything or one, or anoin ...[text shortened]... t for you is evolution, not design because mindlessness can do the remarkable things we see in life.

It is not necessary to know how the first salt crystal formed to know how salt crystals form now. We can observe and understand the process now, because the laws of chemistry don’t change. Same goes for evolution. We do not have to know how or where or when the first self-replicating molecule formed to observe and understand evolution in action now, because the physical processes involved do not change.

@moonbus said
It is not necessary to know how the first salt crystal formed to know how salt crystals form now. We can observe and understand the process now, because the laws of chemistry don’t change. Same goes for evolution. We do not have to know how or where or when the first self-replicating molecule formed to observe and understand evolution in action now, because the physical processes involved do not change.

A crystal doesn't have mechanisms performing complex tasks, with mechanisms having information processing taking place for monitoring levels and events with stop-start activities! Stick with the category we are discussing, a crystal forming would be no different than watching a chemical reaction.

@kellyjay said
Metaphors are explanatory terms explaining phenomena in terms we can understand and relate to.

Does this include the various accounts of creation and specifically those occurring within the Garden of Eden?

@kellyjay said
A crystal doesn't have mechanisms performing complex tasks, with mechanisms having information processing taking place for monitoring levels and events with stop-start activities! Stick with the category we are discussing, a crystal forming would be no different than watching a chemical reaction.

We've been over this a dozen times before. There is no error checking going on inside a cell. There are no start-stop mechanisms going on inside a cell. There is no information processing going on inside a cell. These are all anthropomorphic metaphors to help us visualize what is in fact just a continuous flow of chemical reactions. And, yes, it is complicated, but complexity is not evidence of a mind directing it.

@moonbus said
We've been over this a dozen times before. There is no error checking going on inside a cell. There are no start-stop mechanisms going on inside a cell. There is no information processing going on inside a cell. These are all anthropomorphic metaphors to help us visualize what is in fact just a continuous flow of chemical reactions. And, yes, it is complicated, but complexity is not evidence of a mind directing it.

It is right in front of you and you refuse to acknowledge it, so this is not a discussion on evidence it your unwillingness to see what is there.

In both the digital or biological realms when something is monitored and reactions are done due to levels or events of the system that means there are information processing going on to cause specific reactions to take place with controlled levels that will affect the environment. These reactions are started and stopped by error checking and monitoring, you can see this and acknowledge it digitally and still refuse to accept this in biology shows how you suppress truth for a lie.

Every part of a cell depends upon information processing it could not replicate itself without it. Your refusal to accept that is not based on reason since the principles in play digitally are more advanced in biological mechanisms.

You simply bring denial into this nothing more.

@kellyjay said
It is right in front of you and you refuse to acknowledge it, so this is not a discussion on evidence it your unwillingness to see what is there.

In both the digital or biological realms when something is monitored and reactions are done due to levels or events of the system that means there are information processing going on to cause specific reactions to take place wit ...[text shortened]... tally are more advanced in biological mechanisms.

You simply bring denial into this nothing more.

"But moonbus! My argument by analogy has so many parallels! So many details that line up, that the two things I'm comparing have to be the same!"

"All you have is denial of my bad argument, nothing more!!"

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♀️