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30 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillSInce you said you will admit it if you took it out of context, I suggest you look at the final chapter available as a link from:So it appears that the opposite of what you say is true about his moral stance.
I quoted the book. That was not my invented summary of his ideas. That was the man's own stated concept.
So you have to take it at face value. Mentally retarded people could be used as food for the rest of us who are not retarded. And they could conceivab ...[text shortened]... at the quote is out of context I will admit that it is taken out of context. That is "IF".
http://www.jamesrachels.org/CFA.htm
Unfortunately the pdf that appears is sideways. I suggest you look at the first page of the chapter and at page 186 ( which you cited.)
30 Jul 12
Originally posted by JS357I already posted this and of course it got ignored. Maybe another prompting will get him to pay attention this time.
SInce you said you will admit it if you took it out of context, I suggest you look at the final chapter available as a link from:
http://www.jamesrachels.org/CFA.htm
Unfortunately the pdf that appears is sideways. I suggest you look at the first page of the chapter and at page 186 ( which you cited.)
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30 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywill" My love for my parents is absolutely enfluenced in a significant part by the command of God which weighs upon my conscience -"
[quote] there are lots of experiments using brain scans to predict behavior and thoughts. heres one - http://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/16/5549.abstract
my wife studies child development, you can see morals and behavior develop, love also develops due to a childs relationship with its parents. the love you feel is not spiritual its chemicals released by ...[text shortened]... development.
[quote]
" I think we both can disc...
personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
"According to the revelation of the Bible we are a three part being made up of spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23) . So we are not merely the material body. We have an immaterial component consisting of the "spirit and soul" also. "
thats all fine and well, but you repeat what you have read in the bible. you are just saying what they are not what they do and how they do it.
answering these question may help me understand your views which im finding vague at the moment -
do you think some emotions are created by the body only?
do you think some emotions are created by the spirt only?
do you think some emotions are created by a combination of the two?
" Now if we are only physical, I think man would have been able to invent life by now. We would get all the material parts of a living organism and find a way to create life. It has not been done yet."
you may think this but that is purely an unsubstantiated view, like plucking a number out of the air. im surprised we dont have hover-boards like 'back to the future' it doesnt mean anything. science has already made simple synthetic life forms that can replicate so biological life probably isnt far off...or it may take another hundred years.
"Now let me ask you. If the soul and spirit are only material chemical reactions, then which do you think we should work at
1.) Manufacturing the chemicals to eliminate bad behavior in human beings ?
2.) Manufacture the chemicals to remove any sense of wrong doing and guilt ?"
we should concentrate 100% on 1. option 2 would be crazy, society would crumble and we would all become psychopaths. the reason the body has developed these emotions is to aid our survival, empathy and kindness being key to a group working together well.
" Some kind of logical fallacy is at work in this sarcasm of yours."
yes, the same logical fallacy as you claiming your love cannot be put in a test tube, i was just copying your logic
"The Christian life can be wonderfully balanced. And a reading of the New Testament shows Paul to be very balanced. "
the christians life is no more balanced than anybody else. i have muslim, hindu, christian and atheist friends and family take it from me there is no difference. we all find what we need to be peaceful in our own ways and we all find unhappiness in our own ways and we 1 in 4 of us will suffer from mental health issues regardless of our religion and 40% of us will get cancer regardless of what we believe. there is not one single thing youve got that makes you better off than anybody else. if people do have souls then it doesnt mater what you believe because the spread of good and bad is equal to all people.
just to clarify - do you believe our morals are created outside of our body and have nothing to do with our minds?
" Is it suppose to be a big suprise that chemical TEARS can be an indication of sorrow ? Of course I know that. Is SORROW tears and nothing more ? Of course not. "
"The third category, in general, referred to as crying or weeping, is increased lacrimation due to strong emotional stress, anger, suffering, mourning, or physical pain. It does not occur during the brain's fight-or-flight response because the sympathetic nervous system inhibits lacrimation. This practice is not restricted to negative emotions; many people cry when extremely happy. In humans, emotional tears can be accompanied by reddening of the face and sobbing — cough-like, convulsive breathing, sometimes involving spasms of the whole upper body. Tears brought about by emotions have a different chemical make-up than those for lubrication; emotional tears contain more of the protein-based hormones prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and leucine enkephalin (a natural painkiller) than basal or reflex tears. The limbic system is involved in production of basic emotional drives, such as anger, fear, etc. The limbic system, to be specific, the hypothalamus, also has a degree of control over the autonomic system. The parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system controls the lacrimal glands via the neurotransmitter acetylcholine through both the nicotinic and muscarinic receptors. When these receptors are activated, the lacrimal gland is stimulated to produce tears.[3]" wikipedia
i see no soul just science when it comes to tears my friend.
"Furthermore, if you think on it a little bit more, I don't think you yourself would like such a Disutopian technocracy that claimed to have a pill or an injection for all human spiritual and soulical problems. "
as i do not believe in human souls this isnt something i need to worry about.
30 Jul 12
Originally posted by RJHindsHow these chemical reactions are activated?
I wish you could explain how these chemical reactions are activated to produce morality in the brain. I know we learn morality from teachings like those in the Holy Bible; but unlike Atheists, I do not believe morality is a result of evolution.
In mankind or in the individual?
I 'm trying to give an answer here but from the rest of your post I can see you are not really going to give my explanations a chance to breathe.
You unceasingly put up barriers between things like the Holy Bible and scientific ideas like evolution.
If "God" is real, even in an RJHinds mode, "He" does not put divisions between science and religion or evolution ,morality and The Holy Bible.
Everything has it's place and the more powerful of these ideas (ie morality, evolution, the Bible , Atheists,etc.) are here to stay . As are all things (even if only for words, for words are powerful) that have gained their right to existence.
Some things will go, but mentioning them by name will not help the cause.
31 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfie
" My love for my parents is absolutely enfluenced in a significant part by the command of God which weighs upon my conscience -"
[b] personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
"According to the revelation of th ot believe in human souls this isnt something i need to worry about.[/b][/b]
personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
I'm pretty sure that much of your writing is enfluenced by your personal experience. Some of my writing is enfluenced by mine.
Anyway, I know of no culture where it is to be held in high esteem to be nasty to one's parents generally. The examples I know, in history, of people killing parents or being otherwise very cruel to them, are all held up as negative examples.
The point is usually how EVIL a person was to behave in such a way. Can you submit some examples where such behavior towards mother and father were exemplified as behavior to emulate ?
"According to the revelation of the Bible we are a three part being made up of spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23) . So we are not merely the material body. We have an immaterial component consisting of the "spirit and soul" also. "
thats all fine and well, but you repeat what you have read in the bible. you are just saying what they are not what they do and how they do it.
I repeat some things in the Bible because without God's revelation we could not know some of the things we know.
Science is not the only discpline by which man can know truth. Revelation from God is another and vital way we can know truth.
answering these question may help me understand your views which im finding vague at the moment -
do you think some emotions are created by the body only?
do you think some emotions are created by the spirt only?
do you think some emotions are created by a combination of the two?
I think since the three components are the make up of one total humanity, the factors involved are probably multiple.
Whatever the factors are something not material is involved which the naturalist cannot reduce to physical entitities.
This is like the laws of reasoning or the laws of logic also cannot be reduced to physical matters. Some expectation may be held by some that on a more subatomic level, these things may be located as physical entitities. But our current level of knowledge surely negates that.
I think I can cut to the chase by simply stating that I believe there is a supernatural realm.
The very beginning of the universe is due to causes which lie outside the realm of space, time, and energy which all had their beginning WITH the Big Bang or "Creation Event."
So I think that the supernatural has been even established scientifically is a fact we should accept.
Since the Creation Event, I do not think this supernatural realm has ceased to exist. And I think there is a realm of our humanity which our science instruments cannot touch or measure. They transcend the natural realm and negate a total materialism.
science has already made simple synthetic life forms that can replicate so biological life probably isnt far off...or it may take another hundred years.
I don't think any scientists have not made life. How far off it is we don't know. It may be forever far off.
Me:
"Now let me ask you. If the soul and spirit are only material chemical reactions, then which do you think we should work at
1.) Manufacturing the chemicals to eliminate bad behavior in human beings ?
2.) Manufacture the chemicals to remove any sense of wrong doing and guilt ?"
Stell:
we should concentrate 100% on 1. option 2 would be crazy, society would crumble and we would all become psychopaths. the reason the body has developed these emotions is to aid our survival, empathy and kindness being key to a group working together well.
Maybe you should volunteer for some experimentation.
Who would you suggest they experiment on ?
the christians life is no more balanced than anybody else. i have muslim, hindu, christian and atheist friends and family take it from me there is no difference.
I don't know them so I won't just take it from you.
For the question is not that everyone claiming to be Christian is very balanced. Thousands that I know are very balanced because they learn to be one with a very balanced Jesus Christ whose humanity is fine and forebearing and reasonable and accomodating and well balanced.
So I'll take it from my experience, our experience.
We grow in numbers. We grow in numbers all over the world. And it is not because we live exactly like everyone else. It is because at least some people realize that there is a difference.
That difference is because of the available and real living Jesus Christ within us. If there were no difference than I would never have been persuaded to also become a believer.
The way someone LIVED has a lot to do with my decision to ALSO trust Christ. So don't tell me that there is no difference with at least some Christians.
we all find what we need to be peaceful in our own ways and we all find unhappiness in our own ways and we 1 in 4 of us will suffer from mental health issues regardless of our religion and 40% of us will get cancer regardless of what we believe. there is not one single thing youve got that makes you better off than anybody else. if people do have souls then it doesnt mater what you believe because the spread of good and bad is equal to all people.
I think the situation is a little more serious than that. We are ALL mental cases because our minds have been damaged by sin.
When you come to Jesus Christ you realize that we ALL have problems in the mind with deception. We are deceived people. And we take bitter for sweet sometimes. And we take sweet for bitter sometimes. And we take darkness for light sometimes.
Education and cleverness have nothing to do with it. Very intelligent people also have minds that have been damaged by sin.
Even the idea of God being the advasary or enemy of our greater well being is completely a matter of self deception. And it reveals some damage to our mental health. But this would be a mental health as compared not to typical people but to NORMAL according to the standard of God.
Normal is Jesus Christ. We have all fallen way below the line of "normal" according to God's evaluation. So we need healing of the mind as well as redemption and forgiveness and spiritual life.
just to clarify - do you believe our morals are created outside of our body and have nothing to do with our minds?
I see man as like three concentric circles. The innermost circle is the human spirit. And the human conscience is part of the human spirit. I see outside of that and encompassing that the outer circle of the human soul - the seat of mind, emotion, and will. And without that as the outermost circle I see the human physical body.
The three realms of humanity are also to contact three realms of reality.
The outermost physical body is created to substantiate physical reality.
Then next inner level, the soul, is created to interact with and substantiate other selves and other minds - psychological reality.
Lastly, the innermost part of man, the human spirit is created to substantiate spiritual reality. It is there that we can touch God and Christ directly.
Now when you speak of inside the body and outside the body, I don't think I know that much. I think human language here may have some limitations. And we have to kind of borrow words in order to understand such abstractions.
I don't believe these abstractions will someday be totally reduced to things we can measure physically by any science instruments. This is not to say science cannot do some marvelous things. And this is not anti-science. This is simply a realistic admission that man's being is more that something in the purely natural realm.
Take for instance the human spirit, the "deepest" part of man. I think it is something very close to God Himself. It is something from God but not God Himself. This human spirit is something very close to what God is and that is why it can blend and unite in an organic union with God -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) Man can be joined to the uncreated and eternal God so that His eternal Spirit can become "one spirit" with the regenerated human spirit - a mingling, an "organic" union.
I have to go now.
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31 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywilljaywill are you going to respond to my refutation of the slur on James Rachels that you posted? You said you would admit your error, and it is there for all to see.
personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
I'm pretty sure that much of your writing is enfluenced by your personal experience. Some of my writing is enfluenced by mine.
Anyway, I know of no cult ...[text shortened]... n spirit - a mingling, an "organic" union.
I have to go now.
31 Jul 12
2 edits
Originally posted by stellspalfie
" My love for my parents is absolutely enfluenced in a significant part by the command of God which weighs upon my conscience -"
[b] personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
"According to the revelation of th ot believe in human souls this isnt something i need to worry about.[/b][/b]
"The third category, in general, referred to as crying or weeping, is increased lacrimation due to strong emotional stress, anger, suffering, mourning, or physical pain. It does not occur during the brain's fight-or-flight response because the sympathetic nervous system inhibits lacrimation. This practice is not restricted to negative emotions; many people cry when extremely happy. In humans, emotional tears can be accompanied by reddening of the face and sobbing — cough-like, convulsive breathing, sometimes involving spasms of the whole upper body. Tears brought about by emotions have a different chemical make-up than those for lubrication; emotional tears contain more of the protein-based hormones prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and leucine enkephalin (a natural painkiller) than basal or reflex tears. The limbic system is involved in production of basic emotional drives, such as anger, fear, etc. The limbic system, to be specific, the hypothalamus, also has a degree of control over the autonomic system. The parasympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system controls the lacrimal glands via the neurotransmitter acetylcholine through both the nicotinic and muscarinic receptors. When these receptors are activated, the lacrimal gland is stimulated to produce tears.[3]" wikipedia
i see no soul just science when it comes to tears my friend.
But we cannot take all those components you mentioned, combine them in their proper proportions and produce something in a beaker called "anger" or "sorrow".
So I physically see no soul either like you. But indication of something beyond the lacrimentation, the reddening, the nerves of the nervous system, the tears, the spasms, the upper body, the breathing, the sobbing, the convulsions, the protien based harmones prolactin, the lubrication, the hypothalamus, which is the ME.
And there is something beyond all these matters which I consider YOU.
Those are souls.
31 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywillThe whole is invariably greater than the sum of it's parts.
[quote] "The third category, in general, referred to as crying or weeping, is increased lacrimation due to strong emotional stress, anger, suffering, mourning, or physical pain. It does not occur during the brain's fight-or-flight response because the sympathetic nervous system inhibits lacrimation. This practice is not restricted to negative emotions; many ...[text shortened]... e is something beyond all these matters which I consider [b]YOU.
Those are souls.[/b]
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31 Jul 12
Originally posted by jaywill" I'm pretty sure that much of your writing is enfluenced by your personal experience. Some of my writing is enfluenced by mine. "
personal examples are pointless here, we are talking in general. most children are the result of the environment they grow up in - do you think this statement is true or false?
I'm pretty sure that much of your writing is enfluenced by your personal experience. Some of my writing is enfluenced by mine.
Anyway, I know of no cult ...[text shortened]... n spirit - a mingling, an "organic" union.
I have to go now.
yes we all use personal examples, but only when applicable. what you did there was counter a point made about general statistics with a personal example. which is irrelevant if we are talking about the general populous
"Anyway, I know of no culture where it is to be held in high esteem to be nasty to one's parents generally. The examples I know, in history, of people killing parents or being otherwise very cruel to them, are all held up as negative examples."
i didnt mention children loving their parents. i said children are a result of their environment. this is referring to the fact that who we become 9 times out 10 is because of our parents,family, friends and the community around us as be go through life. im trying to find out from you how you feel the average persons spiritual side has an effect on us, bearing in mind we can see where morals come from.
"The point is usually how EVIL a person was to behave in such a way. Can you submit some examples where such behavior towards mother and father were exemplified as behavior to emulate ? "
its feeling like you have decided what point im making without actually reading what ive written. i have not mentioned a childs behavior to its parents
" Since the Creation Event, I do not think this supernatural realm has ceased to exist. And I think there is a realm of our humanity which our science instruments cannot touch or measure. They transcend the natural realm and negate a total materialism."
okay, lets stick to one example and see how it plays out to us both. you say 'some' mental illnesses are caused by spiritual problems. do you mean particular types of mental illness are connected to the spirit or that any mental illness can be spiritual? (a straight forward answer to a straight forward question would be appreciated)
"I don't think any scientists have not made life. How far off it is we don't know. It may be forever far off. "
i think you meant that 'scientists have not made life'? if so, it depends what you mean by life. as i said science has made simple replicating synthetic life forms. im not sure if you are saying you dont believe me or that you dont class synthetic life forms as life, but i guess thats a whole new topic of debate.
" Maybe you should volunteer for some experimentation.
Who would you suggest they experiment on ? "
why would i volunteer? creating chemilcals to eliminate bad behavior is nothing new and many people volunteer to be test subjects, usually people with problems or students in the need for cash. im not sure id be able to function in my life if i was goofed up on drugs all day, im not sure the relevance of the question
"I don't know them so I won't just take it from you."
maybe you should mix more with other cultures and religions, maybe you would then understand how you are no different and that despite all your beliefs your religion gives you nothing more or less than the next man in the street
"Thousands that I know are very balanced because they learn to be one with a very balanced Jesus Christ whose humanity is fine and forebearing and reasonable and accomodating and well balanced. "
you are missing the point. you know thousands that are balanced because they believe in jesus. there are thousand that are balanced because they belive in krishna, buddah, allah or atheism. so the balance your christian examples show is not related to christ being real, its a balance because they have some direction in their life.
if you believe that their balance is because christ is real then how do you explain why other beliefs offer balance in a person too. unless you are suggesting that christians are more balanced than everybody else. but as we know there is no examples of christian societies being any more content or balanced than other religious societies we know this is nonsense.
" That difference is because of the available and real living Jesus Christ within us. If there were no difference than I would never have been persuaded to also become a believer."
okay tell me the difference between you and a muslim man, what does you being a believer in the correct god give you that believing in the wrong god doesnt give them
"That difference is because of the available and real living Jesus Christ within us. If there were no difference than I would never have been persuaded to also become a believer."
lots of people are persuaded to do all sorts of things, going back to the previous question, what makes your experience any different to any other religious mans.
if a mulsim man said to you - "if there were no difference then i would never have been persuaded to also become a believer (of allah)" - what would you say to them???
"When you come to Jesus Christ you realize that we ALL have problems in the mind with deception. We are deceived people. And we take bitter for sweet sometimes. And we take sweet for bitter sometimes. And we take darkness for light sometimes."
thats a pretty grim view of the world. one im glad i dont share, it would be terrible to go through life feeling like you were full of sin, desperate for forgiveness, no wonder you are all so subservient to your god, you have low self esteem, i wouldnt be surprised if god wanted you all to get some self respect and be proud of the journey you have been on and who it has made you, rather than just looking for somebody else to justify your existence.
"Take for instance the human spirit, the "deepest" part of man. I think it is something very close to God Himself. It is something from God but not God Himself. This human spirit is something very close to what God is and that is why it can blend and unite in an organic union with God - "
what is god?
31 Jul 12
2 edits
To the one or two people who are waiting for me to say something more about this Rachel auther -
I already wrote something on that which you can chew on. I did not find the article misrepresented that much by reading the same review that the poster linked me to.
I would say that in the last years, I have become disappointed with Norm Giesler on occasion. So I did take the heads up seriously. This is not a happy matter for me. For in the past I benefitted much from apologetic books by Norm Giesler.
It could be that in his older years he has gotten a little sloppy. So I took the heads up with some seriousness. But I would really want to get a hold of the Rachel material myself to double check that Giesler was playing fair.
Early in my Christian life "A General Introduction to the Bible" by Giesler and Nix was of great help to me. I would still recommend it without any hesitation. In latter times I strongly disagreed with some matters he has written, supposedly in defense of the Christian faith.
That is the best I can give you all now.
31 Jul 12
Originally posted by stellspalfie
" I'm pretty sure that much of your writing is enfluenced by your personal experience. Some of my writing is enfluenced by mine. "
[b] yes we all use personal examples, but only when applicable. what you did there was counter a point made about general statistics with a personal example. which is irrelevant if we are talking about the general popul ...[text shortened]... in an organic union with God - "
[b] what is god? [/b]
what is god?
Jesus Christ.
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31 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillThe way you describe it, this is a big step for you and that fact is noted.
To the one or two people who are waiting for me to say something more about this Rachel auther -
I already wrote something on that which you can chew on. I did not find the article misrepresented that much by reading the same review that the poster linked me to.
I would say that in the last years, I have become disappointed with Norm Giesler on occa n, supposedly in defense of the Christian faith.
That is the best I can give you all now.
You say you want to get ahold of the James Rachels (not Rachel) material yourself. In the post in which the slur was included, you had a reference to the book by James Rachels. I simply copied that reference in its entirety and googled to the actual book available on line without cost in pdf form. I specifically mentioned that I had done this and included that link in my post that pointed out the issue to you, suggesting the chapter and pages to look at including the ones you cited. This took only a few minutes.
You are quite good at citing the scriptures that you rely on for your opinions, obviously you look at the actual source material in those cases. I suggest you at least do a Wikipedia look at authors who Giesler and his like disparage, before accepting their words as gospel.
31 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357
The way you describe it, this is a big step for you and that fact is noted.
You say you want to get ahold of the James Rachels (not Rachel) material yourself. In the post in which the slur was included, you had a reference to the book by James Rachels. I simply copied that reference in its entirety and googled to the actual book available on line without co ...[text shortened]... edia look at authors who Giesler and his like disparage, before accepting their words as gospel.
You say you want to get ahold of the James Rachels (not Rachel) material yourself. In the post in which the slur was included, you had a reference to the book by James Rachels.
I read through the review and did see any slur.
The man seems to have stepped on the toes of B.F. Skinner the Psychologist. So while contraversial, which he obviously is, it would be interesting to see what he said about Skinner.
I simply copied that reference in its entirety and googled to the actual book available on line without cost in pdf form.
Shame on me then. I didn't know you provided the page for me to read.
Thanks. Above then I'll find a pdf of the book ?
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31 Jul 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill"But we cannot take all those components you mentioned, combine them in their proper proportions and produce something in a beaker called "anger" or "sorrow". "
[quote] "The third category, in general, referred to as crying or weeping, is increased lacrimation due to strong emotional stress, anger, suffering, mourning, or physical pain. It does not occur during the brain's fight-or-flight response because the sympathetic nervous system inhibits lacrimation. This practice is not restricted to negative emotions; many e is something beyond all these matters which I consider [b]YOU.
Those are souls.[/b]
we've been over this, im not sure why you think something has to be created in beaker to separate it from the soul. there are millions of things in the physical world that are organic that we cannot create in a beaker. what point are you trying to prove?
question - why do most babies and small children get angry more often and quicker than most adults? is because small children have angry souls?