Originally posted by knightmeisterDon't apologise - it's great to talk about this kind of stuff without resorting to insults as many of the posters here seem to want to do. I guess I've always been pretty much of an individualist - I like to be able to do things myself whenever possible, so the idea of a God 'within' seems to make sense to me.
It makes sense in some ways but I'm wondering why you 'prefer' the idea 'that God is me' . ? Surely it's not about what we prefer! Sometimes I would 'prefer' not to believe in God/spirituality but I can't get away from it (I'm not a christian fundamentalist or anything, by the way) . It depends what you are looking for, truth or preferences? Spiritual ...[text shortened]... a 'presence'?Does this make sense? Sorry , but I've only got more questions....
Many Christians that I know have that same sense as you - that it's not a choice but a 'calling'(?) I don't feel that way, so for me it is about preference. I prefer not to believe in an externa; God because it just doesn't sit with my view of myself and the world. And it doesn't sit with what I consider to be Truth.
You're right I suppose about me seeing religion as a coping mechanism. I guess I don't have much sense of what else it could be - since I don't share the same feelings of strength and salvation and love and so on that the religious seem to get from their faith. (I do feel these things, just don't attribute them to a religious belief.)
Did I create myself?
No, my strengths and weaknesses I got from my genes and from my background and from the experiences I've had. And I certainly don't feel this inner strength as a presence, although I'm sure that if I was in the right company it might be suggested to me as such ...
Originally posted by amannionBlah Blah Blah
Don't apologise - it's great to talk about this kind of stuff without resorting to insults as many of the posters here seem to want to do. I guess I've always been pretty much of an individualist - I like to be able to do things myself whenever possible, so the idea of a God 'within' seems to make sense to me.
Many Christians that I know have that same s ...[text shortened]... ure that if I was in the right company it might be suggested to me as such ...
Originally posted by EAPOEYou're sounding suspiciously like Bbarr, Eddy... 😉 Did you study at the same institute? 🙄🙄🙄🙄
Blah Blah Blah
Like most religious folks, I'd love the double whammy... Not only do you have someone else to blame everything on (... though it may be the Auntie Christ) but you have a supreme being watching your every move and lurking in the wings to offer salvation whenever you're finished sinning and mocking 😉
Unlike yourself, Manny, I don't subscribe to the within/without schism. You're here or you're not. 😛
😀 Ghandi put is so plainly to us all : "Be the change that you want to see in the world!"
Originally posted by bbarrYou seem to be misunderstanding me, bb 😛 I'm sorry for your loss. 😞 Be real - just try it!
So you want the world to be pretentious?
I want the world to be a caring place. I want the world to be aglee with empathy. I want the world to lean towards peace and freedom. I want to wake up one morning and find everybody on the same side, then buckle down for the ride and focus on solving poverty and hunger. I want to be part of the solution 😀
Perhaps it's naive of me, bb, but I don't think these things will happen without help. :'( We are the ogres that we dreamed of in our childhood beds. Those fairytales that taught us how to be afraid...?
Put down your weapons. Plant a seed or two. Lend a hand to a neighbour. Be the change. 😉
Originally posted by amannionI'm not into insults , I think it just weakens your position anyway. A lot of this is about labelling and perceptions. One man's truth is another man's folly. If I say the sky looks green to me does that mean I'm right because that's how I choose to see it? Or is the sky actually blue and I am mistaken? How do you prove the sky is blue? Maybe what I think is green , is actually blue anyway? Much depends on whether you think truth is a static , constant thing or whether you subsribe to a kind of philosophical relativism which says truth is whatever 'sits comfortably with your world view'. Have I misrepresented your position? I tend to feel that Truth is likely to be something that is actually uncomfortable and challenging (which radical Spirituality is)and miles away from the stereotypical comforting old man in the sky god which so many atheists enjoy knocking so much.I often look at this forum and think that the real debate hasn't even started yet because I don't recognise the 'God' they are talking about. My favourite quote on this is CS Lewis " The God I believe in is not the God you don't believe in".
Don't apologise - it's great to talk about this kind of stuff without resorting to insults as many of the posters here seem to want to do. I guess I've always been pretty much of an individualist - I like to be able to do things myself whenever possible, so the idea of a God 'within' seems to make sense to me.
Many Christians that I know have that same s ...[text shortened]... ure that if I was in the right company it might be suggested to me as such ...
You sound like someone who is on a genuine search for something , which is refreshing amongst Atheists. So many Atheists seem to have a massive chip on their shoulder and don't see how their logic doesn't always add up. My guess is they have been exposed to a poor pirate copy of real spirituality (religion?). As for religion and spirituality , I haven't been near a church in years!....
I forgot to ask you something. When you say "I do feel these things I just don;t attribute them to a religious belief" .....what do you mean? Do you mean you have feelings of strength , love, salvation etc? I realise you haven't had time to respond to my other waffle as yet ..but this intrigues me..it sounds a lot like a spirituality I recognise. Do you get these feelings outdoors with nature?
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou touched on some important philosophies. How do you know what is actually blue? Well, you can't. I can only know (through the world of phenomoenona) that what I see as blue, is blue. I cannot know what everyone else sees as blue. We could all be pointing at the same thing and calling it blue. But I can't know if they're seeing the same blue as me. Thats what "philosophical relativism" even perhaps existentialism is about. Its about the individual and everything relative to him. It is that the individual is the truth.
I'm not into insults , I think it just weakens your position anyway. A lot of this is about labelling and perceptions. One man's truth is another man's folly. If I say the sky looks green to me does that mean I'm right because that's how I choose to see it? Or is the sky actually blue and I am mistaken? How do you prove the sky is blue? Maybe what I t ...[text shortened]... . As for religion and spirituality , I haven't been near a church in years!....
I dont accept God because He is unverifiable. I cannot refute that if he appeared to me, I wasn't tripping out on some strange fungus. So even if there is a truth, its impossible for an indivdual to be absolutely certain of it. There is, one atheistic beliefs (and i dont find i "comfortable". Is it radically spiritual?)
I would be interested to know what your God is. I started a thread on it, but it seems to have degenerated into a "My Gods better then yours" debate.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'll have to have more of a think about it, but I like your ideas - that is truth as being uncofortable and challenging. I agree with you about the threads - they seem to be arguing around the fringes a lot.
I'm not into insults , I think it just weakens your position anyway. A lot of this is about labelling and perceptions. One man's truth is another man's folly. If I say the sky looks green to me does that mean I'm right because that's how I choose to see it? Or is the sky actually blue and I am mistaken? How do you prove the sky is blue? Maybe what I t ...[text shortened]... . As for religion and spirituality , I haven't been near a church in years!....
I think atheists often feel like the world is against them - which is probably true in some respects given the huge number of people with some religious leaning. I'm sure you're right for some - having been exposed to crappy religion - although I wouldn't say that in my case. My Mum's a deeply religious person, took me and my sisters along to church with her when we were young. I actually had a pretty good experience with church and that sort of stuff - what turned me off the notion of God was a sense of ... disconnection? (Not sure if that's the right word for it.) I've read a lot about religion and theology, experienced some of these things first hand - but I felt more and more isolated. The stuff that was being talked about didn't make any real sense. The things that people were apparently feeling, were not what I was feeling.
Perhaps you're right about that being the fault of churches.
Perhaps the outdoors is my church.
Originally posted by knightmeisterProbably not really.
I forgot to ask you something. When you say "I do feel these things I just don;t attribute them to a religious belief" .....what do you mean? Do you mean you have feelings of strength , love, salvation etc? I realise you haven't had time to respond to my other waffle as yet ..but this intrigues me..it sounds a lot like a spirituality I recognise. Do you get these feelings outdoors with nature?
I actually get these sorts of feelings (although maybe not salvation) when I look at my kids. (Mind you I also get feelings of annoyance when they're giving me the s***ts, and the worry about being able to afford to raise them well.)
When I'm outdoors, I get a sense of grandeur, connection, the inconsequential nature of my place in the world, the numinous in the universe ....
Originally posted by amannionYes, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, with out a religion or rules of a religion.
Can there be such a thing - sprituality without religion?
I'm an atheist, so that's it for me for religion, but I spend a lot of time in the outdoors - bushwalking, skiing, surfing and so on - and there's a sense of connection with nature that I get, particularly when I'm alone and when I've been going hard at it for a while, that is pretty hard to define but feels to me like it might be spirituality.
Any thoughts?