Spirituality
12 Jun 12
12 Jun 12
1 edit
In reference to Thread 146470 I though I would open a discussion here about suicide. Specifically
Is it a sin?
If so will all suicides go to hell? Or at least be excluded from Heaven?
Is assisting someone to commit suicide a sin, and a sin in all circumstances?
Atheists, is it morally acceptable for a person to commit suicide?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
12 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterThere is no clear statement in the Bible about suicide. There are passages and stories which can be interpreted to mean that taking your own life is not right. Then there is the story of Sampson who took his own life so that he could in the process kill hundreds of Philistines. In fact Sampson asked God to help him therefore that was a God-assisted suicide.
In reference to Thread 146470 I though I would open a discussion here about suicide. Specifically
Is it a sin?
If so will all suicides go to hell? Or at least be excluded from Heaven?
Is assisting someone to commit suicide a sin, and a sin in all circumstances?
Atheists, Is it morally acceptable for a person to commit suicide?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
I guess this is another one of the 'Christ will Judge' topics. He will know the circumstances under which the suicide took place and chances are he might think its justified... or not.
12 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999In the absence of clear scriptural guidance, and in the interest of common sense I am in the 'it's not a sin' camp. Life can be pretty crap at the best of times so I find it very hard to condemn someone for checking out in tough times, the likes of which I could probably only imagine.
There is no clear statement in the Bible about suicide. There are passages and stories which can be interpreted to mean that taking your own life is not right. Then there is the story of Sampson who took his own life so that he could in the process kill hundreds of Philistines. In fact Sampson asked God to help him therefore that was a God-assisted suicide. ces under which the suicide took place and chances are he might think its justified... or not.
Your example of Sampson is an interesting one which I had not considered. You mention that Christ will decide if it is "justified" or not, which sort of implies a default position of 'it's a sin, but I will let you off in those circumstances'. Is that how you feel?
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12 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeester"The ex-suicide opens his front door, sits down on the steps, and laughs. Since he has the option of being dead, he has nothing to lose by being alive."
In reference to Thread 146470 I though I would open a discussion here about suicide. Specifically
Is it a sin?
If so will all suicides go to hell? Or at least be excluded from Heaven?
Is assisting someone to commit suicide a sin, and a sin in all circumstances?
Atheists, Is it morally acceptable for a person to commit suicide?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
-- Walker Percy, Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book
http://www.bringthebooks.org/2011/08/living-as-ex-suicide.html
From this link, one can conclude that the person for whom suicide is not a fatal sin that brings eternal pain is more free to really live, than the person to whom it brings such fears.
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by JS357An interesting and liberating perspective.
"The ex-suicide opens his front door, sits down on the steps, and laughs. Since he has the option of being dead, he has nothing to lose by being alive."
-- Walker Percy, Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book
http://www.bringthebooks.org/2011/08/living-as-ex-suicide.html
From this link, one can conclude that the person for whom suicide is not a fa ...[text shortened]... brings eternal pain is more free to really live, than the person to whom it brings such fears.
Originally posted by divegeester
In reference to Thread 146470 I though I would open a discussion here about suicide. Specifically
Is it a sin?
If so will all suicides go to hell? Or at least be excluded from Heaven?
Is assisting someone to commit suicide a sin, and a sin in all circumstances?
Atheists, Is it morally acceptable for a person to commit suicide?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
Suicide is Obsolete.
One commits suicide when reaching a state of utter hopelessness.
There is no remedy.
There is no way out.
There is no way forward.
There is no solution and no hope of self improvement.
So the answer in the mind of the dispairing one is suicide.
I have no comment on the morality of suicide. I have comment that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ plus the sending Himself to the believer as the life giving Spirit, has made suicide ineffective and obsolete.
God knows you are hopeless. You dispair because you still retain some inkling of hope in your fallen self. God knows that no self improvement will work.
That is why God makes it a fact that we can be crucified with Christ, die with Christ, be buried with Christ and be raised with Him too to walk in newness of life.
Christ's death not only has the blood REDEEMING power for forgiveness.
Christ's death also has the TERMINATING power to kill off that which cannot be improved and RESURRECTED it with Himself.
Paul SAW this and laid hold of it by faith. And everyone who comes to Christ must see this too.
"I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; ..." (Gal 2:20)
The man does not need SUICIDE. The man needs to come to Christ with faith in his CO-DEATH with Christ. "I AM CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST" .
Only those with hope in SELF IMPROVEMENT dispairingly consider suicide. The Gospel makes is to make us realize -
"I do not need to be self improved. I need to be buried with Christ, having died with Christ. I need to be raised with Christ in His resurrection. I need to be THOROUGHLY identified with Christ as to what He has done on the cross. He died for me.
He died not only a redemptive death for my forgiveness of the past. He also died a terminating death that what cannot be improved, the Satan poisoned old nature, would be nullified and co-crucified by faith in Christ."
"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him." (Rom 7:8)
"We have been buried therefore with Him though baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)
Jesus Christ has made suicide obsolete and unnecessary. We can literally feed upon and apply His own death and resurrection so that its effectiveness works in our own being.
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillChrist has made suicide ineffective and obsolete?
.. I have comment that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ plus the sending Himself to the believer as the life giving Spirit, has made suicide ineffective and obsolete....
Does that mean that Christians cannot take their own life?
12 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999That means they should not. They should exercise faith in the truth that the Christian is crucified with Christ.
Christ has made suicide ineffective and obsolete?
Does that mean that Christians cannot take their own life?
It is very effective to speak these things. It is effective to exercise faith and proclaim the truth. All the blessings of the New Testament are appropriated by FAITH.
We have peace with God when we exercise faith that we are truly forgiven of all our sins, according to the word of the Gospel.
We are likewisee victorious over many negative things when we exercise FAITH in the same way, that we are crucified with Christ ... buried with Him ... raised with Him... ascended with Him... and seated with Him in the heavenlies far above all.
'They overcame him [the accuser] by the blood of the Lamb, and by THE WORD OF THIER TESTIMONY ..." (Rev. 12:10,11)
This is a life long matter that deepens and deepens. We have mix the word of God with FAITH, stand upon the truth. As it is with forgiveness so also it is with our having been crucified with Christ and raised with Christ.
12 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterYes. Only Christ would know someones entire life story and details of their personal pain and suffering. I suppose the sin of the act of suicide would be weighed against the good that the person did. All sin and probably all try to follow Christ and do good works as well.
.. Is that how you feel?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Chances are a man who lived according to the teachings of Christ and ended his life by suicide could very well find favour with God notwithstanding.
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI think everyone would accept that nobody should take their own life.
That means they should not. They should exercise faith in the truth that the Christian is crucified with Christ.
It is very effective to speak these things. It is effective to exercise faith and [b]proclaim the truth. All the blessings of the New Testament are appropriated by FAITH.
We have peace with God when we exercise faith that we are trul ...[text shortened]... h forgiveness so also it is with our having been crucified with Christ and raised with Christ.[/b]
The question is if they do, is it a sin and would it eliminate their chance of eternal life.
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by divegeesterThere are certainly circumstances where suicide is a morally acceptable choice.
In reference to Thread 146470 I though I would open a discussion here about suicide. Specifically
Is it a sin?
If so will all suicides go to hell? Or at least be excluded from Heaven?
Is assisting someone to commit suicide a sin, and a sin in all circumstances?
Atheists, is it morally acceptable for a person to commit suicide?
Any other comments or perspectives...?
12 Jun 12
Originally posted by avalanchethecatPerhaps. But my rule of thumb is: Do no harm to others, Do not deceive, Do not coerce. I can see many suicides as being a case of doing harm to others and therefore not morally acceptable.
There are certainly circumstances where suicide is a morally acceptable choice.
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12 Jun 12
Originally posted by FMFI agree that we do not live in a vacuum and that committing suicide has an effect (usually negative)
Perhaps. But my rule of thumb is: Do no harm to others, Do not deceive, Do not coerce. I can see many suicides as being a case of doing harm to others and therefore not morally acceptable.
upon others in various ways to differing extents.
I had a friend myself [albeit not a close friend but still] who committed suicide (stood in front of a train)
and along with the sense of loss I felt, I saw the greater loss of her close friends and family and also
there was the effect on the train driver who was driving the train she chose to stand in front of.
In this instance there was I know a great many people who would have gone to help her at the drop
of a hat if only we had known she felt this way, and the fact that it came out of the blue added to the hurt
with everyone feeling that they could have helped, or at least tried to help, if only she had asked for it.
This coupled with the way she chose to kill herself, which involuntarily involved the train driver in her death
as well as anyone who had to clean up the train and track afterwards, makes me regard her suicide as
being incredibly selfish and immoral due to the undue harm it caused to others and the needlessness of it.
However...
I also understand that someone suffering from a terminal incurable ailment that causes them continuing and
untreatable pain and suffering, either physical or mental, should absolutely be able to choose a time at which
they say "this is enough, I can't take any more, I want to end this".
And I also think that if there is anything you have a right to be in control of it's your own life.
So...
While I classify some suicides as morally bad and some as good (or at least the least bad available option).
I do not think that anyone has a right to stop (as opposed to try to talk someone out of) someone of sound mind
from exercising their right to end their own life (and in some cases get assistance in doing so).
I do however think that some methods of committing suicide are beyond the pail.
Any method that involuntarily directly involves someone else in your death (stepping out into traffic/in front of a train/
suicide by cop/ ect...) and makes someone else the involuntary cause of your death.
That is never acceptable.
I don't think that a healthy person committing suicide is a morally good thing... However we have a right to be as*****s.
The fact that something is morally wrong does not necessarily equate with it deserving to be prohibited.
I hate the attention seekers who slash their wrists only to survive time and time again.
People that really want to kill themselves may not tell anyone or even leave a note. The method they employ is near 100% sure in achieving it's purpose.
Interestingly in this first world country,Australia, where we have it good. Minimal homeless people compared to europe and the u.s. . A welfare system that caters for nearly everyone. Plenty of space, good weather , beaches, etc. ,. Australia has something like 1000 young people (18-25) kill themselves every year. (this was from a survey done about 5 or 6 years ago for that year- it was also noted that there was a significant amount of suicide related deaths which were not classified as suicides, so that figure could be higher (1500+) )
Why so many young people killing themselves while living in one of the most affluent countries in the world?
Spiritually speaking I think "God" would just see a suicide as a waste of time, because whatever lessons that 'soul' was learning will now have or be re-learnt, ie. going through the birth procedure, kidhood upto adult hood where you will finally been faced with the same (similar) sort of questions and challenges as you were before.
Perhaps some sort of intuition can take place in the mind of person whereby this time around he says 'no' to suicide and continues on his dharma.
Suicide happens. But it is just sad for the people that loved the guy, and for god it's just another headache and more time wasted that could better be put to working on world peace or whatever "He" contemplates...