09 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeI don't have further time to waste with you; I have to play a timed game on another site. Please try to think up some actual reasons for the positions you've espoused here. By that, I mean any positions relevant to the subject of the thread.
YES, SIR ! ....... 😀 😀 😀
09 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderGood luck with your game, marauder ! 🙂
I don't have further time to waste with you; I have to play a timed game on another site. Please try to think up some actual reasons for the positions you've espoused here. By that, I mean any positions relevant to the subject of the thread.
... I still wonder who is with him on this ? 😀
09 Dec 05
Ok I don't know if this has already been said because I haven't managed to wade through the entire thread. But here is my take on the situation...
I don't think it was suicide because the intention was not to kill themselves, the intention was to escape the pain and fire. The fact that they knew that they would probably die as a result does not alter the fact that, that is not why they did it.
The same action can mean different things depending on the intention, I believe there is a difference between jumping in front of someone who is firing a gun with the express intention of being shot (suicide), and jumping in front of someone firing a gun to stop someone else being shot (heroism). In the same way there is a difference between jumping off a 90 story building inorder to kill yourself (suicide), and jumping off a 90 story building to escape a fire (desperation).
As a final parting shot, for the religious surely it is not suicide anyway because if your faith is strong enough wouldn't you believe that God could save you if he deemed it fitting and thus death is not inevitable but of Gods choosing?
So I agree with who ever said that we can't know, what happens to them but because we don't know means that they obviously aren't automatically damned (so I also agree with whoever said that the answer was No they are not eternally damned - though maybe the answer should have been 'Not necesarily'😉
Neil
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by Zippy BFor about the hundredth time in this thread, why is the action of the people on the ledges knowingly jumping to their deaths to escape the suffering of being burned alive not suicide, but someone shooting themselves because they have a painful, terminal disease and they don't want to suffer suicide? Will the people who keep claiming that the actions detailed in the first post were not suicide, please directly respond to that question. Parroting the same assertion over and over and over again with no logical rational is tiresome and not a discussion.
Ok I don't know if this has already been said because I haven't managed to wade through the entire thread. But here is my take on the situation...
I don't think it was suicide because the intention was not to kill themselves, the intention was to escape the pain and fire. The fact that they knew that they would probably die as a result does not alter t ...[text shortened]... are not eternally damned - though maybe the answer should have been 'Not necesarily'😉
Neil
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by Zippy BA person with bone cancer which is eating them alive from the inside out
I don't think it was suicide because the intention was not to kill themselves, the intention was to escape the pain and fire. The fact that they knew that they would probably die as a result does not alter the fact that, that is not why they did it.
is also trying to escape the pain. It's not that they want to die, they just
want to escape the pain.
How is this different?
Nemesio
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by Nemesiothe jumpers weren't committing suicide. they were AVOIDING it. by jumping out of the building they have a miniscule chance of surviving. by staying inside, they are surely going to die. the fire will kill them. if they jump, they most likely also die, but have minimally better chances at survival.
A person with bone cancer which is eating them alive from the inside out
is also trying to escape the pain. It's not that they want to die, they just
want to escape the pain.
How is this different?
Nemesio
09 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lioyankBS.
the jumpers weren't committing suicide. they were AVOIDING it. by jumping out of the building they have a miniscule chance of surviving. by staying inside, they are surely going to die. the fire will kill them. if they jump, they most likely also die, but have minimally better chances at survival.
A) They weren't jumping out of the building; re-read the first post;
B) No one ever survived a fall from 90 stories; they knew they were going to die.
They decided to end it quickly rather than suffer what they considered a worse fate. That is suicide by any standard definition.
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by lioyankHave you really convinced yourself that this is true? That the people considered
the jumpers weren't committing suicide. they were AVOIDING it. by jumping out of the building they have a miniscule chance of surviving. by staying inside, they are surely going to die. the fire will kill them. if they jump, they most likely also die, but have minimally better chances at survival.
their options and figured they had a better chance of surviving from jumping
80+ stories?
Put your hand on a Bible and honestly say that you think the people were really
thinking this.
Nemesio
09 Dec 05
In the words of one of our resident experts on eternal damnation:
Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.
According to this theory, the people who jumped lost whatever faith they had that God "could help them through anything" "at the last moment". They should have been praying in this view, not deciding to end their lives.
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderA) i re-read the first post. ok. they jumped from the ledge.... as the fire was approaching them. it is your belief that the jumpers KNEW it was suicide. i disagree. it is my belief they understood that they were probably going to die, BUT knew that they would DEFINATELY die if they didn't jump. they took a chance for survival. not suicide. their chances were s**tty. but they were still there.
BS.
A) They weren't jumping out of the building; re-read the first post;
B) No one ever survived a fall from 90 stories; they knew they were going to die.
They decided to end it quickly rather than suffer what they considered a worse fate. That is suicide by any standard definition.
B) i will take your word for it and agree that no one ever survived a fall from 90 stories; but there is a first for everything. even in case law, there are arguments that may sound crazy, but are presented in court because there are no other sufficient alternatives. and once in a blue moon, they actually work.
in ANY case, whether what i said is true or not, whether what u said is true or not, we will never know. we don't read minds (unless you have some secret magic mind-reading power you've been hiding from me). we can assume whatever we want. the fact is none of us know what was going through their minds. so we can go on assuming to know what they were thinking, but whether we are right or wrong will never be determined.
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderNow THAT'S BS.
In the words of one of our resident experts on eternal damnation:
Committing suicide is a one way ticket to hell. It shows a complete and utter lack of belief that God can help you through anything. In other words, even if he had faith, he lost it at that last moment.
According to this theory, the people who jumped lost whate ...[text shortened]... the last moment". They should have been praying in this view, not deciding to end their lives.
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by Nemesiowe don't know what they were or were not thinking. we don't have the ability to know this. we are only human. we can assume that they were thinking this or that, but no one was there with them at the time.
Have you really convinced yourself that this is true? That the people considered
their options and figured they had a better chance of surviving from jumping
80+ stories?
Put your hand on a Bible and honestly say that you think the people were really
thinking this.
Nemesio
you have your opinion of what they were thinking, i have mine. i'm not going to try and convince u that i'm right, because i don't know. it is a guess, no more or less worthy than yours.
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by lioyankWhy would you, them, or anyone conclude that they would have a better or worse
it is your belief that the jumpers KNEW it was suicide. i disagree. it is my belief they understood that they were probably going to die, BUT knew that they would DEFINATELY die if they didn't jump. they took a chance for survival. not suicide. their chances were s**tty. but they were still there.
chance of dying from the fall rather than the flames?
That is, you write that 'they would DEFINATELY die' from the flames. Why would
they be so certain of that, but somehow uncertain of a fall?
You didn't answer my question directly in your other post: putting your hand on the
Good Book, are you really of the opinion that any of them thought they had a better
chance of surviving the 80+ story fall? Or do you think it is more reasonable to
conclude that they were jumping just to escape the pain?
Nemesio
09 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThe action is different because they didn't jump inorder to die from a large fall, they jumped inorder to not die from the fire. I don't believe that going through there heads was 'This is going to kill me but it will be easier than being burnt to death' I recon its more likely that they were thinking, 'If I stay I die - if I jump I might survive'. The fact that they died as a result of there actions anyway is irrelevent - they weren't trying to kill themselves.
For about the hundredth time in this thread, why is the action of the people on the ledges knowingly jumping to their deaths to escape the suffering of being burned alive not suicide, but someone shooting themselves because they have a painful, terminal disease and they don't want to suffer suicide? Will the people who keep claiming that the actions det ...[text shortened]... ssertion over and over and over again with no logical rational is tiresome and not a discussion.
I have never tried to jump from 90 stories up so I don't know if I would survive - probably not. But there have been cases of people who have fallen from aircraft from 7000ft and survived so there would be enough room in my mind for doubt to allow me to jump thinking that I am more likely to survive.
So sorry to repeat for the 100th and 1 time, but when they jumped they were not trying to kill themselves (to escape pain and suffering), they were jumping on the slim chance that they might survive.